[jdonn]

JanM, on Apr 15 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

Vilgan, on Apr 15 2008, 07:59 AM, said:

I can sort of see this in NABC events, but imo its probably not going to be enforced very well. It also seems sort of silly when they don't even have screens for a lot of sessions where they probably should (day 2 and beyond in all national events imo).

I'm a big fan of screens, for lots of reasons, but you have to realize that they are very expensive, both because of the cost of shipping and setting up the tables with screens (even ignoring the cost of buying them to begin with) and because a table with screen takes about twice as much space as a table without screens, which usually has to be paid for. I have a feeling that if entry fees for day 2 and on in the NABC events were doubled or tripled to pay for having screens, there would be a huge outcry.

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life doesn't matter when compared to an outcry over a generally affluent class of people paying $10 extra to play (to support a FAR more effective cheating deterrant) because..... the outcry is not as big? Or because the people in charge are only listening to certain 'outcriers'?

[jdonn]

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced.

My reaction ranges from "if they had strictly enforced the last policy we wouldn't need this one" to "why should I believe them after they didn't enforce the last policy?"

[TimG]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life

No hyperbole?

[Vilgan]

JanM, on Apr 15 2008, 10:33 AM, said:

Vilgan, on Apr 15 2008, 07:59 AM, said:

I can sort of see this in NABC events, but imo its probably not going to be enforced very well. It also seems sort of silly when they don't even have screens for a lot of sessions where they probably should (day 2 and beyond in all national events imo).

I'm a big fan of screens, for lots of reasons, but you have to realize that they are very expensive, both because of the cost of shipping and setting up the tables with screens (even ignoring the cost of buying them to begin with) and because a table with screen takes about twice as much space as a table without screens, which usually has to be paid for. I have a feeling that if entry fees for day 2 and on in the NABC events were doubled or tripled to pay for having screens, there would be a huge outcry.

On the flipside though, the current times they use screens the tables/screens are very heavy and expensive looking.. at least from what I recall of my experience with them. If they made screens less of an exotic item and approached it more from a mass produced perspective it seems like a lot of the size/weight/initial cost issues can be mitigated. Screens don't have to be expensive/heavy/exotic, that's just the approach it seems like the ACBL has taken (no clue outside the ACBL). Hell, screens could be cloth as long as it was dark enough to not be seen through.

As for setup... unload them in the corner and ask players to grab the components to set it up (again, heavy is a bad thing here). I'm pretty sure those who have physical difficulties with it can get help from their opponents or a nearby table.

Anyways, I'm not saying this is implementable without there being costs. It does seem, however, somewhat naive/foolish/arbitrary to ban an item many people use constantly for a million things while ignoring all the much bigger problems of UI at the table. The fact the cell phone ban is very hard to enforce only makes it worse. All the law abiding people get massively inconvenienced, all the ones who might be tempted to cheat aren't going to give a flip about the cell phone rule. So the end result is a bunch of inconvenienced non cheating individuals and no reduction in the potential for cheating at a tournament.

[TimG]

Vilgan, on Apr 15 2008, 12:25 PM, said:

As for setup... unload them in the corner and ask players to grab the components to set it up (again, heavy is a bad thing here). I'm pretty sure those who have physical difficulties with it can get help from their opponents or a nearby table.

No. It may be OK for people to take down chairs and tables after a small local tournament, but the playing areas for a NABC should be set up and taken down without any help from the participants.

[jdonn]

TimG, on Apr 15 2008, 12:15 PM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life

No hyperbole?

I'll grant you it's temporary not permanent. Otherwise, I think it's the view of that outlook as hyperbole that is the problem...

[h2osmom]

I wonder what the outcry actually WOULD be if day 2 and beyond of NABC+ events had a $10 surcharge for increased security. I don't imagine it would be much of a problem at all.

[JanM]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 11:14 AM, said:

So the outcry over stealing an entire class of peoples' way of life doesn't matter when compared to an outcry over a generally affluent class of people paying $10 extra to play (to support a FAR more effective cheating deterrant) because..... the outcry is not as big? Or because the people in charge are only listening to certain 'outcriers'?

I'm confused. I wasn't saying anything about any outcry about the electronics ban. I have no idea whether the ACBL Board will be influenced by the comments here to change the electronics ban. I was responding to the suggestion that screens should be used from the second day of NABC events on. And if you really think that the additional cost of screens would be $10 per day, you are wrong - when I said double or triple the entry fee I based that on a fair amount of experience with the cost of screens. The entry fee for an NABC event is $36 per person per day, not $5 or $10.
I also have a little history to base my comment on - when screens were first introduced, the entry fee for the Vanderbilt & Spingold was raised from the Round of 16 on (that being when screens were used) and there was sufficient complaint that the entry fee is now the same on all days of those events.
The screens we now have are a result of many years of experimentation. In the beginning (am I quoting from somewhere?), the "screen" part was a curtain - that just didn't work well. The current screens are well-designed, both for use and for setting up, taking down and shipping. But they're not something inexperienced people can set up or take down. And they're not cheap.

[matmat]

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

[mike777]

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

Welcome to America

ACBL try and put in place a policy be prepared for cops and lawyers.
1) Be an ACBL policy maker
2) You darn well be ready for the cops and lawyers to be speed dialed on you.

Several posters have said they will speed dial the cops and their lawyers

[jdonn]

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

[CSGibson]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 08:57 PM, said:

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

They'll definitely know you have a phone if you speed dial a lawyer in front of them.

[jillybean]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 09:57 PM, said:

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

And those who forget to turn their &^&^ phone off during the game.
I wish they'd frisk the players at the 299ers too

[matmat]

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 11:57 PM, said:

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

seems like an awfully good way to use (the already thin) human resources. Surely watching play at tables might actually have more of an effect at curbing cheating than seeing who starts looking for a phone at the bottom of their purse or some pocket.

[matmat]

jillybean2, on Apr 16 2008, 12:14 AM, said:

And those who forget to turn their &^&^ phone off during the game.
I wish they'd frisk the players at the 299ers too

having the phone ring is another matter entirely. mind you, i just talked with someone who played a local sectional event recently (one of the last few days) and said that a player's phone went off and the director, as usual, did nothing.

what's the point of making rules if they're either unenforcible or not going to be enforced?

[jchiu]

CSGibson, on Apr 16 2008, 05:02 AM, said:

jdonn, on Apr 15 2008, 08:57 PM, said:

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

It seems like only if they catch someone being careless, like taking a phone out of their pocket as they leave the playing area.

They'll definitely know you have a phone if you speed dial a lawyer in front of them.

How would one make that inference?

[mike777]

PLease keep in mind.....when people call the police or sue you lose, even if you win, that means......it costs you money and time....
1) Lots of your money
2) lots of your time.
3) Yes you may win at trial but in USA you lose.....you lose thousands and thousands of bucks......in court costs.....and thousands of hours of your life....
4) Welcome to ACBL......please join.....and set policy......
5) Please see this policy ...please see how many forum members say....1) call police 2) call lawyer on speed dial......

[mike777]

I grant it may only take one or two or 4 or 6 years of your life to be involved with police or lawsuits but still please join this policy .....

Join ACBL and set some policy that you may be sued on.....

[TimG]

matmat, on Apr 15 2008, 10:16 PM, said:

mike777, on Apr 10 2008, 06:26 PM, said:

This policy will be strictly enforced. The first violation carries a bridge penalty, the second results in expulsion from the event for the pair or team. "

ok. how?

are they going to search my pockets?

the moment anyone tries that i'm calling the cops and a lawyer.

Going to find a pay phone for that?

[TimG]

mike777, on Apr 16 2008, 02:26 AM, said:

PLease keep in mind.....when people call the police or sue you lose, even if you win, that means......it costs you money and time....
1) Lots of your money
2) lots of your time.
3) Yes you may win at trial but in USA you lose.....you lose thousands and thousands of bucks......in court costs.....and thousands of hours of your life....
4) Welcome to ACBL......please join.....and set policy......

It is against ACBL regulation to sue ACBL before going through the ACBL disciplinary procedures.