[whereagles]

The_Hog, on May 26 2004, 01:17 AM, said:

The above is illogical. Regardless of what system you play, if you have a bid, make it. How else can opener distinguish between
Txxxx
AJT
xxx
xx

and
xxxx
xx
xxx
xxxx

It's actually very logical

In precision, opener doesn't need to distinguish between the two case you showed. You're outgunned anyway, so finding a suit is all that matters. In 2/1 there may be a need to distinguish the two if opener has 19-20 points, but in that case you can always, jump, cue-bid later (or a good-bad 2NT if you play that).

What your feeling for the game is telling you when you say "if you have a bid, you make it", is that it is more important to show your distribution than your strenght, and therefore you feel an urge to bid 1♠ on that hand. Mind you, in a random situation I would bid 1♠ as well. I would require something special attached to the situation to pass. However, if I had

Txxxx
KJT
xxx
xx

I would definitely pass in most 2/1 situations, but bid in precision.

[mishovnbg]

1eyedjack, on May 25 2004, 07:52 AM, said:

cnszsun, on May 24 2004, 07:21 PM, said:

Thanks all for your replies. At table, i bid 1♠ without much hesitation, the reason behind is just as many have indicated here: I may have to make a decision at higher level later if i don't do it now. But, my pd later said i should not bid a free bid with such a lousy hand and lousy suit. He is a good player on BBO, so i fear i may have a wrong understanding about "free bid". Now my mind is much clear. Thx again.

I doubt that it will make much difference which you choose between an initial pass and 1♠ (and the same applies in uncontested!). The existence of partnership agreement on the minimum requirement is more important than the specifics of the agreement. Next time with that partner I would pass, because that is what he expects.

This is only way of wining, totaly argee with you, monocled one. Try to play what your partner like in all possible in your opinion cases. Insist to your own methods only when partner's one is complete unacceptible for you. The best system you can play is which your partner know and like.
Misho

[arrows]

some other thought,
I would make a call, but maybe I consider a negative double more descriptive and flexible.

[luke warm]

a negative double, strangely enough, might tend to show even more values... again, this depends on the partnership's understandings... this is a competitive auction and lott should apply... agree with ben, 4S made no sense.. even if your free bid promised 5 and the neg x 4 you only have 7 between you...

a good example of why shep recommends cooperative doubles in these cases.. of course the 1S bid might have led p to make a double expecting more from you, but there you go

speaking of the cooperative double here, your pass of 4D says "i have my bid but nothing extra" or maybe even "i bid but now i wish i hadn't"... in either case, partner can only bid on with 1) greater strength or 2) for some distributional reason... imo, so should 1) pass, promising what his bids show or 2) double, which says "i have extra for my bidding to date"... while x might work for him, i'd be tempted to pass 4D

This post has been edited by luke warm: 2004-June-15, 05:10

[Free]

inquiry, on May 25 2004, 07:20 AM, said:

Michael fear not, everyone makes mistakes. This time, the mistake wasn't yours, necessarily. The free bid shows substantial values is not horrible bridge, just not adhered to much any more. I suspect the mistake here was your expert partner's. He was wearing some very rose colored glasses. Here is the hand in question...

Scoring: IMP

West North East South

 Pass  1♣    1♦    1♠
 2♦    3♣    Pass  Pass
 3♦    4♣    Pass  Pass
 Dbl   Pass  4♦    Pass
 Pass  4♠    Pass  Pass
 Dbl   Pass  Pass  Pass
 

---

If you pass, your side is out of the auction probably for ever. In addition. When you show up with the ♥AJ, and presumably long spades your partner will be played for the doubleton ♠Q because you didn't bid. As it is, declearer will surely misguess ♠ and likely misguess ♦ if they play in ♦.

It is also worth noting, that you PASSED 3♣, a very forward going bid by your partner. Your opponents doubled his 4♣ for penalty (probably down one) with correct restricted choice guess. But what in the world was he doing bidding 4♠? Sure by "old fashion" free bid style your hand was light, but even opposite a sound free bid 1♠, his hand is unsuited for a 4♠ bid. The road to riches here is paved in golden double. Even double dummy, 4♦ has no chance, as it has to lose 3♥ and a ♣, and i would not be surprised to see a ♠ come your way, as well as maybe a ♦. So, rack up +300 at a realistic minumum, and a likely +500.

Ben

This is nut bidding from North! 3♣ ok, 4♣ willing to push them one higher but they Dbl and run away! 4♠ suicide ofcourse, playing with a 5-2 at 4-level and losing values in both ♥ and ♦, just let them play 4♦. They'll never score bigtime, and if they go down, at least you get some points, more than you diserve...

If you think you're maximum with such hand, you need to do something about your hand evaluation:
- ♥KQ is a lost Q, loses 1 trick
- ♦Qxx is a lost Q and loses 2-3 tricks
- ♠Qx has some value, however you're playing in a 5-2 fit, and chances are quite big trumps are split 4-2, losing at least 1 trick, possibly 2
- ♣ are solid, no losers usually
So bidding 4♠ is just asking to get doubled and go down at least 2. If I may choose between letting opps play 4♦ +3 max or play myself doubled -2, my choice is made quite quick.

Btw, partner sure doesn't have a 6 card ♠, otherwise he'd eiter jump to 2♠ right away with a weak hand, or bid 3♠ after your 3♣ with a nice hand.

[bearmum]

whereagles, on May 26 2004, 12:00 AM, said:

Hog: the point is as follows.

If you're playing 2/1, pard can still be strong enough to find another bid if you pass now. Then you'll have a second chance to show your spades. Playing precision, pard won't have a strong hand, so it's unlikely your side will get to bid again, thus the more urgent it is to make now a bid for the competition.

since when is a PRECISION 1C not a strongish hand???

The precision my reg pard and I play 1C = 16+ ANY distribution and over a 1D overcall I can bid 1S showing 5-8 points and a 5 card S suit - EXACTLY what I have got . NO the ONLY way partner can FORCE me to bid ahain is by JUMPING the bidding! SO If he bids 3C I WILL PASS

[whereagles]

The auction I meant wasn't 1♣ (1♦) 1♠, I'm talking

1♦ (1♥) 1♠

[bearmum]

whereagles, on Jun 16 2004, 02:57 AM, said:

The auction I meant wasn't 1♣ (1♦) 1♠, I'm talking

1♦ (1♥) 1♠

OOOPS sorry

[lbyer]

I would neg double.

This is a 5 card spade suit headed by the 10 with min values. Why not inform p that you have a spade holding and suggest min values. I think free bids should show more than a min.

[the hog]

I think free bids should show more than a min.

This concept died years ago. If you have a bid, make it. Much better to get into the auction early rather than let the opponents have a free run.

[PriorKnowledge]

1S, no question.

I agree with Hog. The "free bid shows extra strength" concept died long ago when competitve bidding became so pervasive and with the advent of the LAW. If you don't bid now, you may never get another chance.

I hate the principle of pass now and back into auctions later.

Not negative double because you have 5s not 4 and only 3h. The weakness of your spade suit does not reduce it's length. If partner has 3 small spades you will lose 3 spade tricks in any contract, but in spades you will have 2 extra trump. It is more valuable to have honors in your long suits, but 5 cards is 5 cards.