[kgr]

1m-1M-1NT
1H-1S-1NT
1M-2m-2NT
1D-2C-2NT
If you play weak NT (12-14): How much points do the above NT rebids show?
Is it different if you play SAYC or 2/1?

Now I play strong NT (15-17) without 5-card Major; and e.g 1H-1S-1NT can show 12-17 HCP. Responder can ask strength and distribution with 2C. Do you normally play the same when using weak NT?
Or are NT rebids always strong (15-17)?

Thanks,
Koen

PS: similar questions already posted on rgb, but I wanted some more opinions.

[Fluffy]

Hi kgr!

If you play weak NT I think all of the above show 12(11)-14.

When you are playing strong NT, that denies a 5 card major there is a small gap in 5 card major openings: the 15-17 5-3-3-2 with 5 card major.

I am not sure if what I will say is standard, but I think it is the best way to handle:

Regarless if partner bids 1♠ or 1NT in response you bid the same way:

Bid 2♣/2♦ with 3 card suit, partner will pass this bidding only about 10-15% of the time, usually he will bid 2 in your major showing 2 card support. Now you are in the right time to bid 2NT showing a balanced/semi balanced (5-4-2-2) with limit values (15-17).

Even if partner passes the 2♣/♦ response, it use to happen to be a very good contract, and a hand in wich 3NT is not good.


The problem about playing 1NT 12-17 (wich I think its much better than rebid 2NT with 15-17), is the wide range to describe on partners questions: you won´t be able to show all the strrenghts combined with the often important 2 or 3 cards in ♠, wich will probably end on lack of precision about the best contrtact.

[hrothgar]

As always, its MUCH more useful to be discussing a specific System [Acol or K-S] rather than "weak No Trump". With this said and done...

> 1m - 1M - 1N

15-17 balanced is the normal agreement

> 1m - 1M - 2M

15 - 17 balanced is the normal agreement

> 1M - 2m - 2NT

This depends on your agreements.
In particular:

1. What do you open with 5332 and a 5 card major?
2. What does your 2/1 promise?
3. What does a 2M rebid promise

>1H - 1S - 1N

As before

>1D - 2C - 2NT

15 - 17 balanced is normal

[Free]

kgr, on Jun 14 2004, 12:33 PM, said:

1m-1M-1NT
1H-1S-1NT
1M-2m-2NT
1D-2C-2NT
If you play weak NT (12-14): How much points do the above NT rebids show?
Is it different if you play SAYC or 2/1?

Now I play strong NT (15-17) without 5-card Major; and e.g 1H-1S-1NT can show 12-17 HCP. Responder can ask strength and distribution with 2C. Do you normally play the same when using weak NT?
Or are NT rebids always strong (15-17)?

Thanks,
Koen

PS: similar questions already posted on rgb, but I wanted some more opinions.

Depends on opening style and 2/1 style.

Usually when you play weak NT, all these bids should all show 15-17, but there's a slightly different approach I've seen for the first 2 bidding sequences. If they can bid both 1NT and 2NT, they make a tight pointrange for both bids: 1NT with 15-16, and 2NT with 17-18. It's not my preference, but some people play it.

When you play 2/1, then you get a different range for the 3rd case (1M-2m-2NT) I think (not sure). Then 2NT shows a strong hand, while 2M would show a balanced 15-17 or unbalanced minimum hand.

Fluffy said:

If you play weak NT I think all of the above show 12(11)-14

This is rubish since you would've opened 1NT...

[kgr]

Quote

its MUCH more useful to be discussing a specific System

Suppose you play either SAYC or 2/1. See below for specific issues I see and for which I want a solution.

Quote

If you play weak NT I think all of the above show 12(11)-14.

I suppose this is a typing error? Could be 11-14 when playing strong NT, but not with weak NT?

Quote

> 1m - 1M - 2M
15 - 17 balanced is the normal agreement

I would think this shows unbalanced hand with 12-16? Probably 5 card m and 4 card M. Otherwise: What do you bid with 1=4=5=3 and minimal hand? Probably you open 1D and if partner bids 1H you bid 2H?

Quote

Usually when you play weak NT, all these bids should all show 15-17

My questions come from the following concern (in the assumption that NT rebid shows 15-17):
I you have a minimal unbalanced hand without a good rebid.
E.g.1: xx AJxxx KJx Kxx. You open 1H and partner bids 1S. You will have to rebid 2C or 2D while you want to end in 1NT (certainly in MP's).
E.g.2: xx AJxx Kx KJxxx. You open 1C and partner bids 1S. You will have to rebid 2C while you want to end in 1NT (certainly in MP's).
I think that this is less a problem if you play strong NT and if you have these kind of hand with 15-17 HCP. If you can not open then you will have enough points to rebid 2m or to bid reverse.
=> How do you play this if you play weak NT?
=============================================
Additional:
What about following changes (agreements) to avoid these issues:
1) include strong NT opening in 1C. 1C-1X-1NT shows 15-17HCP and a balanced hand.
2) also open 1NT with 5 card Major (and ask for 5 card with puppet stayman or Niemeyer). Looks especially useful if combined with 2/1. In that case if you open 1H you are unbalanced and you don't mind that f.i 1H-1NT is forcing. Even if MP's you don't want to stop in 1NT.

...I need this info to try to convince my partner to change to weak NT... It is better than strong NT, isn't it? (Not sure: I know it is more frequent, but I think you have less rebid issues with strong NT. Also stayman and transfer is more important in strong NT - a strong and a weak hand - to let the strong hand play)

[hrothgar]

>Suppose you play either SAYC or 2/1. See below for specific issues I
>see and for which I want a solution.

If you are playing SAYC or 2/1, then you are NOT playing a 12-14 NT.
SAYC is a System. 2/1 Game Force is a family of systems. Both are based on a strong NT opening bid.

From the sounds of things, you are interested in integrating a 12-14 HCP 1NT opening into a relatively standard 5 card major system. As you are starting to understand, this simple decision will ripple throughout the rest of the system.

I STRONGLY advise that you get a copy of a well designed system like K-S and try understand how the system designers established a set of design goals.

In answer to an earlier question: Most 5 card major / weak NT systems are based on sound minor suit opening bids. As a result, if the auction starts 1m - 1M - 2M, you are promising roughly equivalent playing strength regardless of whether you are holding a balanced or an unbalanced hand.

[inquiry]

Unlike Richard, I am willing to accept a variety of NT ranges as part of 2/1 GF system. In fact, the range I currently play is (13)14-16(17). I include 13 and 17 because there are some 13 point hands I upgrade and open 1NT, there are some 17 point hands I down grade and open 1NT. A 16 pt hand with a nice 5 card suit I often consider too strong for 1NT.

But what got me to respond is a concept that Misho and I play. We have started playing this sequence as artificial...

1any-1M-2NT

We use this jump to 2NT to show good four card support for responder's major. If you need a term for this, consider it Jacoby 2NT by opener. We have codified responses to this jump as well....

This reduces the range of the following bid, making it very narrow...

1any-1M-3M... if you think about this jump, your partner has no room to investigate. He has to decide now, do I bid game or do I pass it out at the three level. There is absolutley no room to seek additional information from partner. Thus, it would be great if this was a very limited bid. Here you can limit it to a two point range if you like, as you can include a much wider range in your 2NT jump rebid.

Ok, what is the cost of using 2NT as Opener? You lose the natural 2NT jump rebid, and obviously a 1NT rebid can not be pressed into service for 18-19 point hands, as then it would be overloaded. We use new minor by opener as a one round force, as a result of this, we sometimes get out in two of our partner's major (when he has a weak hand). After this new minor forcing, then 2NT shows the big balanced hand, and three of the minor shows a weakish hand (with a better hand and a two suiter, jump to three of the new minor, not bid 2).

At least consider the ramifications of using 2NT as fit and force for the major rather than some non-descript balanced strong.. you can get there by other means.

Ben

[Trpltrbl]

When playing weak NT, for now 12-14, and you rebid NT or support pd's suit with simple raise you show 15-17.
When playing regular NT, 15-17, rebid of 1NT or support pd's suit with simple raise show 12-14.
When you play variable NT's depending on strenght or vul, it depends what agreements are.

Mike

[Cascade]

Trpltrbl, on Jun 27 2004, 02:52 PM, said:

When playing weak NT, for now 12-14, and you rebid NT or support pd's suit with simple raise you show 15-17.
When playing regular NT, 15-17, rebid of 1NT or support pd's suit with simple raise show 12-14.
When you play variable NT's depending on strenght or vul, it depends what agreements are.

Mike

I like this subtlety

15-17 NT is regular and by implication other ranges are irregular.

I can forgive you since this is a SAYC forum.

While I am here and since I usually play a weak NT this is our NT structure:

1NT = Good 11-14

Partner says we have a dispute about what constitutes a good 11. She thinks that I think "Good I have 11 points I can open 1NT"

1x 1y
1NT 15-17

1x 1y
2NT 18-19

1y 2x
2NT 15-19 and we often freely raise 3NT to 4NT later to show good 18-19

1x 1y
3NT This is a hand too good for 3x

1y 2x
3NT We play this as an artificial raise of partner's suit. When it is a minor we will not have side singleton so 3NT can be passed. It shows a hand just a bit better
than 3x raise.

After

1♠ 2♥
3NT This is serious slam interest with hearts but not a splinter raise.

[luke warm]

kgr, on Jun 14 2004, 04:09 PM, said:

My questions come from the following concern (in the assumption that NT rebid shows 15-17):
I you have a minimal unbalanced hand without a good rebid.
E.g.1: xx AJxxx KJx Kxx. You open 1H and partner bids 1S. You will have to rebid 2C or 2D while you want to end in 1NT (certainly in MP's).
E.g.2: xx AJxx Kx KJxxx. You open 1C and partner bids 1S. You will have to rebid 2C   while you want to end in 1NT (certainly in MP's).
I think that this is less a problem if you play strong NT and if you have these kind of hand with 15-17 HCP. If you can not open then you will have enough points to rebid 2m or to bid reverse.
=> How do you play this if you play weak NT?
=============================================
Additional:
What about following changes (agreements) to avoid these issues:
1) include strong NT opening in 1C. 1C-1X-1NT shows 15-17HCP and a balanced hand.
2) also open 1NT with 5 card Major (and ask for 5 card with puppet stayman or Niemeyer). Looks especially useful if combined with 2/1. In that case if you open 1H you are unbalanced and you don't mind that f.i 1H-1NT is forcing. Even if MP's you don't want to stop in 1NT.

...I need this info to try to convince my partner to change to weak NT... It is better than strong NT, isn't it? (Not sure: I know it is more frequent, but I think you have less rebid issues with strong NT. Also stayman and transfer is more important in strong NT - a strong and a weak hand - to let the strong hand play)

i'm putting together a system (thanks to mikestar, ben, the links given by several people) that's based on 11/12-14 nt (yeah i caved and changed it)

so the strength of the nt rebid depends on whether 1c or 1d is the opening bid.. if 1c, 1nt rebid is 17, 18... if 1d, it's 15,16.. 2nt for 1c is 21,22 and 2nt for 1d is 19,20

presently 1c is forcing, with the fantoni/nunes (thanks to misho) bids incorporated.. i'm working on the 1d responses..

as for the 5M322 hands, i'd like all of those opened 1nt if 11/12-14 (same general reason as 15-17 nt.. makes rebids easie [sometimes])... if stronger, the nt rebid shows 15-17 and 2nt 18, 19 or so

so your ex 1 and 2 hands, i'd open 1nt on both.. the only time 4522 hands are opened something else (ducking) is when 4s/5h are held, when *shudder* flannery is opened

as to whether or not it's "better" than strong nt, i don't know.. i do know that it's a lot more fun and it makes bidding easier (for me)... and in my experience (when i can find someone to play it), the pluses far outweigh the minuses

[luke warm]

Cascade, on Jun 27 2004, 08:29 PM, said:

1NT = Good 11-14

Partner says we have a dispute about what constitutes a good 11. She thinks that I think "Good I have 11 points I can open 1NT".

lololol... this is pretty much how i feel.. heck, if someone wanted to upgrade a 10 counter, i wouldn't complain

[WrecksVee]

In all cases in my only near weak NT partnership all these rebids show 17-18. We open 1NT with 12+ to 16 and include all hands with five card majors, unless the hand is so concetrated that we are willing to treat it as a one suited hand and bid and rebid the major. The NT range is obviously too wide but we find it enjoyable. SJ Simon said something like, "Better to play a bad system well then a good system badly", and we could not agree more.

The idea of opening 1NT freely with five card majors is taken from suggestions in books by Ron Klinger. We also use Klinger's non Stayman system of responses know as Keri. This lets us find our 5-3 fits on many hands.

[Trpltrbl]

I play variable NT's myself, depending on vulnerability and seat.
Either 10-12 NV in 1st, 2nd or 3rd seat.
Or 12-14 When Vul.
And with some I play 12-14 in 4th seat no matter Vul or not, and with few others I play 15-17 in 4th.

Mike

[1eyedjack]

kgr, on Jun 14 2004, 06:33 AM, said:

1m-1M-1NT
1H-1S-1NT
1M-2m-2NT
1D-2C-2NT
If you play weak NT (12-14): How much points do the above NT rebids show?
Is it different if you play SAYC or 2/1?

Now I play strong NT (15-17) without 5-card Major; and e.g 1H-1S-1NT can show 12-17 HCP. Responder can ask strength and distribution with 2C. Do you normally play the same when using weak NT?
Or are NT rebids always strong (15-17)?

Thanks,
Koen

PS: similar questions already posted on rgb, but I wanted some more opinions.

I usually play 12-14 1NT opener which may contain 5 card major.

1m-1M-1NT = 15-17 (will normally bypass 1M rebid in preference for 1N)
1H-1S-1NT = special case (playing Granville/Kaplan inversion) Depending on local licensing restrictions (level of event) I either play that 1N rebid shows a 4 card spade suit (level 3) or 15-17 balanced or 4 card Diamond suit (level 4).
1M-2m-2NT = 15-20
1D-2C-2NT = likewise

Cannot comment on SAYC or 2/1, except to say that 2NT rebid after 2/1 in SAYC is really odious.

[Gerardo]

1eyedjack, on Jun 28 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

Cannot comment on SAYC or 2/1, except to say that 2NT rebid after 2/1 in SAYC is really odious.

I like Lawrence's way, 2NT after 2/1 is 12-14 OR 18-19, balanced.
Can't be passed, because it is already GF, and you rebid 4NT over 3NT, quantitative, to show 18-19, which should be safe when partner has enough to force to game in the first place.

UPDATE: I evidently didn't read the previous post

[1eyedjack]

Gerardo, on Jun 28 2004, 05:42 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jun 28 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

Cannot comment on SAYC or 2/1, except to say that 2NT rebid after 2/1 in SAYC is really odious.

I like Lawrence's way, 2NT after 2/1 is 12-14 OR 18-19, balanced.
Can't be passed, because it is already GF, and you rebid 4NT over 3NT, quantitative, to show 18-19, which should be safe when partner has enough to force to game in the first place.

I think in SAYC a 2/1 is not GF, which is what makes the 2NT rebid so odious.

[wert]

1m-1M-1NT : 15-17 HCP, balanced

1H-1S-1NT : 12-17 HCP, 5-3-3-2

1M-2m-2NT : 15-17 HCP, 5-3-3-2

1D-2C-2NT :
we play that 2C is GF and denies 4+ major suit
2NT is 15-19 HCP, bal, denying 5+ D, and without club fit (3 good or 4+)

1D-2C-3NT : 15-17 HCP, not 5+ D, bal, xx in C

[Trpltrbl]

1eyedjack, on Jun 29 2004, 12:57 AM, said:

Gerardo, on Jun 28 2004, 05:42 PM, said:

1eyedjack, on Jun 28 2004, 02:45 PM, said:

Cannot comment on SAYC or 2/1, except to say that 2NT rebid after 2/1 in SAYC is really odious.

I like Lawrence's way, 2NT after 2/1 is 12-14 OR 18-19, balanced.
Can't be passed, because it is already GF, and you rebid 4NT over 3NT, quantitative, to show 18-19, which should be safe when partner has enough to force to game in the first place.

I think in SAYC a 2/1 is not GF, which is what makes the 2NT rebid so odious.

That's why most good players left SAYC alone a long time ago

Mike

[EarlPurple]

In standard Acol, minimum rebids of NT always show 15-17. (Some play 15-16 for 1NT).

I don't subscribe to this myself, as it means that with a balanced 12-14 you must ALWAYS open 1NT, even with a 5-card major. Actually in standard Acol you are playing 4-card majors, and a 5-card major is supposed to be rebiddable, thus you would have an auction like 1H pass 1S pass 2H showing a weak balanced hand because you can't bid the natural 1NT.

Eric Crowhurst also didn't subscribe fully to this either and came up with alternatives, with the 1NT rebid being a wide range. Responder can pass with a weak hand but may otherwise bid 2♣ articifically. He introduced this, I think, with all such rebids of 1NT although many use it only after 1♥-1♠-1NT.

I think it is natural when playing 5 card majors and a weak NT to treat the 1NT rebid as wide-range but the 2NT rebid as always weak, and to find another bid if stronger (even a 3-card minor). You can raise partner's minor with 3 card support and make that bid forcing in your system. And a 3NT rebid would show 15-17 points with 5-3-3-2 and usually the doubleton in partner's suit, though you might sometimes do it with 3.

Playing 4-card majors and a weak NT (i.e. Acol) I think the best set of responses after 1H-1S-1NT (12-16) - 2C (asking) is:

2D: strong (15-17)
2H: 5 hearts, weak
2S: 3 spades, weak
2NT: 4 hearts, 2 spades, weak.

14 points is generally considered weak holding only 4 hearts but strong with 5. (5-3-3-2 being better than 4-4-3-2 or 4-3-3-3).

2C can be bid only on hands where responder is looking for a major suit fit. On other hands he can use 2NT to invite.