[bluecalm]

Let's say it goes :

1♥ - dbl - pass - 1♠
2♥ - 2♠- pass- ?

Now responder has a problem. Partner can have 12hcp and standard t/o double with 4♠ or even 15-16hcp. On the other hand responder can have 0hcp or even 10 (correct ?)
Some examples:

ATxx
Kx
Qxx
QJxx

KQxx
xxx
Axxx
xx

Responder has maximum for 1♠ but still is afraid to invite a game because the doubler can have the above hand. On the other hand the doubler can have:

ATxx
Kx
KQx
Axxx

And 11 tricks is very probable.

Do you have any thoughts or solutions to this problem ? In general it occurs after t/o double and raise of major suit by the doubler.

Take care

[helene_t]

I think the first North hand you give is slightly too weak for 2♠. South will make a game try with the hand you give him so therefore the first North must pass. He doesn't need quite as much as the 2nd South hand, though.

[dake50]

Doesn't the T/O doubler have other strong bids? Thus 2S just announces S-fit confirmed and liked?

What would repeat X, then 3S mean? Or 3H Q-bid? Or 3m force? Or even 3S? Or pass?
This is an expected auction after T/O double of 1H, aren't continuations clear?

[bluecalm]

Quote

What would repeat X, then 3S mean? Or 3H Q-bid? Or 3m force? Or even 3S? Or pass?
This is an expected auction after T/O double of 1H, aren't continuations clear?

The problem is that with 15-16-17hcp and 4-2-3-4 or somethign you don't want to go to 3level facing possible 0hcp.

[Little Kid]

Isn't 1♠ 0-7 and 2♠ 8-11 or so after the double?

[helene_t]

Little Kid, on Jan 11 2010, 02:15 PM, said:

Isn't 1♠ 0-7 and 2♠ 8-11 or so after the double?

Matter of agreement but there is a modern trend (at least in the Netherlands) towards non-jump advances with more values. Most 8-counts and some 9-counts would not make a jump in the current fashion.

dake50: 3m is not forcing.

[hanp]

I wouldn't bid 2S with the first hand. I would however bid 2S with a fairly minimal 4-1-4-4 shape so the problem is there and I don't have a solution.

[pooltuna]

bluecalm, on Jan 11 2010, 07:06 AM, said:

Let's say it goes :

1♥ - dbl - pass - 1♠
2♥ - 2♠- pass- ?

Now responder has a problem. Partner can have 12hcp and standard t/o double with 4♠ or even 15-16hcp. On the other hand responder can have 0hcp or even 10 (correct ?)
Some examples:

ATxx
Kx
Qxx
QJxx

KQxx
xxx
Axxx
xx

Responder has maximum for 1♠ but still is afraid to invite a game because the doubler can have the above hand. On the other hand the doubler can have:

ATxx
Kx
KQx
Axxx

And 11 tricks is very probable.

Do you have any thoughts or solutions to this problem ? In general it occurs after t/o double and raise of major suit by the doubler.

Take care

you need to add some structure to your responses to a TOX. In the particular auction you are showing the responder should assume that you have a minimal TOX and respond accordingly. Since the TOXer has support for all unbid suits the responder treats his response like partner had opened that 4 card suit. So 1♠ generally is less than a constructive raise(could be 0) and promises 3+ cards only. 2♠ is a constructive raise and 3♠ would be a limit raise. Now with a minimum TOX the rebids all show xtras even in a competitive auction so
(1♥) X (P) 1♠;
(2♥) 2♠
Shows extras, about a K extra.

[Old York]

It is dangerous for doubler to bid twice with a minimum hand. He has described his hand already, so should leave the decision to partner. Double-then-pass shows a minimum. Never bid twice with a weak hand unless partner forces.
Double-then-bid always shows extra strength
I would not be timid as responder, jumping to 2♠ has merit with 10 total points, 8 losers and good Spades

Tony

[petterb]

bluecalm, on Jan 11 2010, 07:06 AM, said:

ATxx
Kx
Qxx
QJxx

KQxx
xxx
Axxx
xx

I'd bid 2♠ instead of 1♠, and definitely pass with a minimum takeout double. 2♠ by takeout doubler shows extras.

[hanp]

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

[mich-b]

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 09:06 AM, said:

I wouldn't bid 2S with the first hand. I would however bid 2S with a fairly minimal 4-1-4-4 shape.

I agree with this.
The responder should assume the doubler has something between minimal 4144 , and a balanced 16, and invite if he thinks this may be enough to make game.


KQxx
xxx
Axxx
xx

This hand though , IMHO , is a 2♠ response , not 1♠.
In reality the responder will rarely have a hand worth an invite opposite a competitive raise.

[Old York]

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 04:02 PM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so
Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

Tony

[Codo]

hanp, on Jan 12 2010, 12:02 AM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx, a typical hand where it is fairly likely that both 2H and 2S will make.

I do agree that KQxx xxx Axxx xx should bid 2S right away.

Maybe it is, but I do not like your reason:

If 2 Spade from doubler promises extras, you surely will bid 2 spade on Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx,because you know that partner with minimum values has a 4 card fit or at least a real good 31(45)- in both cases it must be right to compete in the pass out seat.

I never understood the modern trend of bidding 1 spade with 0-10. I see no upsides but some difficult problems later. Maybe someone can explain the upsides to me?

[hanp]

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 04:02 PM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so
Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

[pooltuna]

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 10:48 AM, said:

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 04:02 PM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

I would expect partner to bid again in the pass-out seat. It is seriously bad bridge to allow opponents to play 2♥ when we have a known spade fit and both sides have 20 points or so
Had I opened 1♠, partner should be happy to bid 2♠, so why pass now when I have shown opening values, heart shortage and a spade suit?

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

I assume you are objecting to the possibility of playing a 3-4 ♠ fit (apparently my definition not yours) but guess what if you bid 2♠ because you have 4 with a minimal hand you still may end up playing a 4-3♠ fit. IMO if you bid 2♠ with no extra values you are bidding the same values twice.

[Old York]

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 04:48 PM, said:

Old York, on Jan 11 2010, 10:10 AM, said:

hanp, on Jan 11 2010, 04:02 PM, said:

I think it is important to be allowed to bid 2S as opener without serious extras. You can't expect partner to bid again holding something like Qxxx Jxxx Kxx Jx

Rule #1 - Trust your partner

Tony

Because you might not have a spade fit.

On over 90% of hands, doubler has shown spades. If he does not have spades, then that is his problem, not mine... without spades he must have compensating values in the minors. Regardless, I will trust him, until I get evidence to the contrary

Tony
Edit:
Bidding twice with inadequate values shows a lack of respect for your partner's judgement. To maintain partnership harmony, you should always double-then-pass

[helene_t]

Tony, these guys routinely double 1♥ on a 32(53) 11-count.

OTOH responder's 1♠ bid may be a 3-card as well, but assuming that doubler is more likely to have only three spades than advancer is, it is doubler's responsibility to bid 2♠ with four. Advancer can double 2♥ with four spades and extras.

[jdonn]

This thread is wow.

The advancer of KQxx xxx Axxx xx has an automatic 2♠ bid on the first round.

Obviously bidding 2♠ directly when you might not have a fit and being pushed there when you might not have a fit are totally different things.

[Old York]

helene_t, on Jan 11 2010, 05:15 PM, said:

Tony, these guys routinely double 1♥ on a 32(53) 11-count.

OTOH responder's 1♠ bid may be a 3-card as well, but assuming that doubler is more likely to have only three spades than advancer is, it is doubler's responsibility to bid 2♠ with four. Advancer can double 2♥ with four spades and extras.

I totally agree, but without this undisclosed partnership agreement, I still prefer the old-fashioned methods
I freely admit to being old-school, but my statement does hold water
If partner chooses to make a takeout double, and then bid again, with inadequate values, then that is his problem and not mine

With deepest respect
Tony