[sceptic]

Scoring: IMP

---

West North East South

 -     -     -     Pass
 Pass  2♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

what do you think of my pass, after my p opens 2 clubs

also is 2 clubs a game force bid?

[PriorKnowledge]

You got lucky on this hand. Partner could have much more or a void in clubs. But what you gained on this hand, you lost on all others because your partner will never trust you again

2C a GF? Dbl of opps is OK also.
Most play that if opener rebids 2N showing 22-23/24, it is not a GF and responder can pass.
Or if opener rebids opener's major at the 3-level (2C 2D 2S 3C 3S), responder with a bust can pass. Opener with a GF hand can set trump and demand a q-bid with 2C 2D 3S.
In all other auctions, 2C is a GF.

[sceptic]

why do you expect a void in clubs, I play 2 clubs is NOT a 3 suited hand

also do you really think it was that bad as a reg partnership, I thought I was beinbg sensible?

[luke warm]

2♣ passed out? i sure hope that was a pick up partner... i would never pass partner's forcing bid, if i knew it was forcing... prior is correct imo, your partner will never trust you again, nor should he

[hrothgar]

>what do you think of my pass, after my p opens 2 clubs

Ludicrous

>also is 2 clubs a game force bid?

Most pairs have a variety of sequences that allow the partnership to signoff below game.
2♣ - 2♦ - 2NT is probably the most common example of a non-forcing sequence.

Please note: The fact that 2♣ is not game forcing does not excuse your pass in any way, shape, or form. Partner's 2♣ opening indicates that he is very strong. He will often have good shape as well. You have NO way of knowing what partner's hand looks like. When you pass you're taking a dreadful gamble and the odds don't look too good.

Case in point, suppose partner held the following

♠ AKQT98
♥ Axx
♦ AKQ
♣ x

6♠ is cold (I'm not saying that it will be bid).
You could go down in 2♣

[luke warm]

sceptic, on Jun 12 2005, 02:37 PM, said:

also do you really think it was that bad as a reg partnership, I thought I was beinbg sensible?

wayne, is 2♣ a forcing bid in your partnership or is it not? i admit, it would never occur to me to pass a 2♣ opening, and i've had loads of crap opposite such openings on many occasions

you simply have no choice, you have to bid... your partner shouldn't trust the opponents, but he should be able to depend on you

[Free]

I always hate it when partner passes a forcing bid. If I make a mistake by making partner bid, then it's my responsability, not his. If he passes a forcing bid, it simply means he doesn't trust my bidding, so that won't be a good partnership ever.

2♣ openings in std systems is any GF, so it's forcing, and responder shouldn't pass until game is reached.

Pass is one of the worst bids I've ever seen, even if the result is good! I want to win every time except sometimes when I'm unlucky, not losing every time unless I'm lucky.

[mike777]

sceptic, on Jun 12 2005, 03:11 PM, said:

<!-- FULLHAND begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> South </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> All </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> AQ94 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> KQ72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AK </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> A76 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> T86 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> J6543 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> J632 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> K </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> K72 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> A98 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> Q84 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> QJ54 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> </th> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> J53 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> T </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> T975 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> T9832 </td> </tr> </table> </th> <th> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- FULLHAND end -->

West  North East  South

 -     -     -     Pass
 Pass  2♣    Pass  Pass
 Pass  

what do you think of my pass, after my p opens 2 clubs

also is 2 clubs a game force bid?

Wayne, I assume you meant this post to be a joke?
If not, what is the maximum HCP partner is allowed to open 2Clubs in your bridge books?
If not, what is the maximum number of tricks partner is allowed to have to open 2C in your bridge books?

[MickyB]

I'm going to be a dissenter...Pass isn't that bad IMO. Sometimes it will gain, sometimes it will lose, it will be a while until you get a similar hand in that situation, so I can understand you wanting to experiment

People have said about partnership trust, and Free said

"I always hate it when partner passes a forcing bid. If I make a mistake by making partner bid, then it's my responsability, not his. If he passes a forcing bid, it simply means he doesn't trust my bidding, so that won't be a good partnership ever."

The other way of looking at it is that you you shouldn't worry about what pard will think or whose responsibility the bad result is - you want partners who will let you use your judgement in any situation. Face it, if you want to find out if your pard has the temperament to forget what has gone before and just concentrate, the next board will be the ultimate test!

[Echognome]

I personally really dislike pass. It could work out yes, but so could me passing any of partner's forcing bids. I think this is trying to "mastermind" a hand and one in which you know little about. It's easy enough to come up with hands where 2♣ is a ridiculous contract. Whereas at the other table I can't imagine that the other table will open 2♣ and my hand will bid 2♦ or some other negative. I'm taking a unilateral action on this hand that 2♣ will play well and if it doesn't I'm fully to blame. I don't think there is sensible judgment here yet.

[MickyB]

Passing here has a much better chance of working out than passing the average forcing bid! Yes, of course it is masterminding, but I dislike that many consider it wrong because of this, or won't do it because any blame will lie with them. IMO partnerships should be able to cope with this sort of thing, and if your pard can then do whatever you think is best. My intuition says that pass here will be approximately break-even, although I suppose there's a chance that I'm wrong Of course, it depends what hands your pard deems suitable for a 2♣ opener.

Wonder if the opps will balance when it is right

[Double !]

Nonsense
2♣ is forcing, I don't care what you have. Pass is ill-advised, especially when P has game in his/her hand.
lololol.............I pity partner who has to decide what's going on, and whether or not to take action in the balancing seat....NOT
Ever get fixed at matchpoints by someone passing partner's reverse, only to find that that was the only contract that the opps could make and you were dead if you bid. Things even out over the long-run. How many imps did you win on following hands because the 2C opener didn't trust any bid that his partner made from that point forward?

[PriorKnowledge]

This is a beginners/intermediate forum, so I will address this to the other beginners/intermediates that may be reading this: Don't ever pass an opening 2C bid. (Actually, try not to pass any forcing bid.) Passing a 2C opener is not bridge, just a gamble that happened to work out this time. Experts are not responding to this thread because it is ridiculous to even consider passing a 2C opener. People who are arguing in support of the pass are either joking or embarrassing themselves. (And believe me, I know all about embarrassing yourself with a silly post.)

If you want to gamble, take up poker. At least you won't be involving an unsuspecting partner in your gambles.

[Winstonm]

The problem here, IMHO, is that South has made a unilateral decision (Based on looking solely at his own hand, and even then it doesn't matter as pard has forced you to bid.) that there is no N/S game, yet he holds more than a minimum - Jxx of spades and a singleton heart - a card and a ruffing value. In any suit contract other than hearts, the hand should provide a minimum of 1 trick and maybe many more. This hand should not be a disappointment to partner in any suit contract - even the heart 10 has value if pard has long/good hearts; perhaps it's an entry to lead the J of spades for the finesse for 10 tricks. Seems to me to be masterminding to decide at this point in the auction that partner has: A) a heart 1-suiter and no way to make game opposite my hand.

A easily possible hand for pard:

AKQxxx
AKJx
x,
Axx

Just because the opps aren't bidding their head's off in hearts doensn't always mean all the hearts are in pard's hand. If my pard did this to me, I wouldn't say a word - but when the match was over, I'd smile, shake his or her hand and say, "Thanks for the game, but I don't think we see eye-to-eye. Good luck with your next partner, though." And that would be it.

WinstonM

[keylime]

Some would pass and go plus.

I admit the temptation is strong to do so here, but I'm going to not jam pard up. I'll take some call.

Stay true to pard, even with this ragtag assortment of trash.

[mikestar]

May you spend eternity holding AKQJT AKQJT AKQ void opposite a partner who masterminds like you did.

The gain on the one hand cannot possibly begin to cover the losses caused by partner losing trust--if it doesn't break the partnership outright, the losses in IMPs or matchpoints will run into the hundreds at least, maybe more--an action like this can damage confidence for years.

And there is no guarantee you even gain on the hand. Once while playing Precison, my partner intentionally passed my forcing 1♣ with xxx xx x xxxxxxx--a matermind far more likely to work than passing 2♣. We made 1♣ and we had no game, but 1♣= (I was void and the clubs split badly) was a cold bottom when the whole field was in 2♠+1/3♠= for +140. This dropped us from first overall in a regional MP event to fourth.

[HeartA]

If my pd passed my 2C opening without apology and good reason (was away, friend bid it for me, with online bridge; distracted, too tired), I wouldn't trust him anymore, and I would consider if still want this partner.

But I did passed pd's forcing bid twice, as I remember. The first time was looooooong time ago when I passed my pd's precision 1C. Fortunately, we got some imps on this board because the "right" contract of 4S would fail due to trump 4-0 break. My pd knew I was tired. The second time was a month ago (I had a post on BBO here) playing with a pd I didn't trust. I passed her cue-bid of opp's opening suit (♣). And I judged right. Hadn't I passed, we would get dbled on any other contract.

[helene_t]

Not that I've never passed a forcing bid myself. I once passed a 2♣ opening defined as "strong, or weak with both majors", when I hold 12 HCPs and a 1237. But I think it's a bad idea not to trust partner, even if he is not trustworthy.

If you treat his 2♣ openings as only semi-forcing, he will start opening 4♠ or 3NT whenever he has a real 2♣ opening. And rightly so. Then you will pass his 2♣ openings with more and more values, and raise his 4♠ openings to six with a flat hand with an ace and a king. Now you're both doing the right thing but your partnership is not.

I think the best way to educate partner is to trust him. No matter how untrustworthy he is.

[mike777]

helene_t, on Jun 13 2005, 01:26 AM, said:

I think the best way to educate partner is to trust him. No matter how untrustworthy he is.

This quote may sum up the USA versus European view of the world and bridge world.

In USA if my partner passes my 2C my first thought is to shoot them, not educate or trust them.

"no matter how untrustworthy"

If a partner is untrustworthy, I will never educate or trust them.
Reagan said trust but verify. But he was still ready to push the button and drop the bomb (on partner).

[helene_t]

It didn't occur to me that this was a matter of European vs American culture.

We do have strict firearms regulation so it's difficult to shoot your partner. But you can always steal their bicycle or let your dog ***** in front of their house. The idea is the same.