[jahol]

Sometimes, using specific bidding methods, you may have very specific problem, the rest of the tables is not confronted with (just because of bidding naturally)...

Both lines vulnerable, you have this "nice" hand

8---AKJ85---KQ8543---3

and LHO opens the bidding with 14-16 NT doubled with your partner (D.O.N.T., one-suit hand, usually 6-cards, colour unknown, strength unknown, limited by elementary safety requirements from the lower side and by an eqivalent of 15 points from the upper side). RHO bids 2 clubs - weak - to play. What is your bid?

[mcphee]

Dble shows values and is for t/o, if it isn't it will be after this hand

[hanp]

It would be good to have a discussion here. Does double ask partner to bid his suit, and is any suit by us natural? That seems normal to me but perhaps some will think that 2D asks partner to convert.

The chance that partner has spades must be at least 95%. I'm worried about missing game if I bid 2D or 2H, but I don't think there are better options available. If partner is going to pass then 2D will be better. The chance that partner will raise us is rather low, but obviously we would be very happy if partner could raise 2H. More likely partner will pull to 2S. Will we be happier if we have bid 2D and follow with 3H, or the other way around?

If partner pulls he probably has shortness in our first suit. I'd say that in that case, game is not so likely. That means I'd prefer to bid 2H followed by 3D then the other way around, I don't want to end in 4D. 2H also works out better whent he opponents compete to 3C, then we can bid 3D.

2H it is, good problem.

[gwnn]

it's either 3♣ or 2♥. Since I don't know what 3♣ means, it is unreasonable to expect partner to "understand it", so I will bid 2♥.

[Free]

I will bid 2♥ because it gives me an easy 3♦ rebid if partner responds with the pretty much expected 2♠. In DONT this shows a decent hand (otherwise immediately overcall 2♠).

[Fluffy]

2♥

[pooltuna]

I think we can safely infer that partner's suit is ♠. Do the system agreements prevent him from holding 3 ♥s along with 6♠. If not I would try 2♥ as the best chance to get to a makeable game.

[aguahombre]

Darn, I lost David's link to NT defenses (can someone help?).

But I am sure that in DONT double --if spades -- is stronger than 2S directly, despite OP's contention that no strength has been shown. Couple that with Hanp's 95% likelyhood that pard has spades. Conclusion: If we pass 2C, partner will bid 2S.

All this means to me is that a double of 2C maybe should suggest NOT bidding 2S, but rather bidding a frag in a red suit (also shows strengh, so if doubler has a red one-suiter the other 5% of the time; she can bid 2 spades to deny spades or jump in her red suit).

That might need cleaning up, since I just thought of it. Or trashing if it can't work; we couldn't really have penalty of 2C, and a direct 2D would have to be a normal pass/correct (losing 2D natural).

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on Sep 20 2010, 10:46 AM, said:

All this means to me is that a double of 2C  maybe should suggest NOT bidding 2S, but rather bidding a frag in a red suit (also shows strengh, so if doubler has a red one-suiter the other 5% of the time; she can bid 2 spades to deny spades or jump in her red suit).

That might need cleaning up, since I just thought of it.  Or trashing if it can't work; we couldn't really have penalty of 2C, and a direct 2D would have to be a normal pass/correct (losing 2D natural).

Huh? Why couldn't we have a penalty double of 2♣? LHO has a weak NT, partner has a single suited hand (presumably spades with more than a minimum spade overcall) and RHO has run out of the double of 1NT to 2♣ natural and to play. While my hand says that we don't (and probably cannot) have a penalty double of 2♣, the bidding doesn't say that.

[pooltuna]

ArtK78, on Sep 20 2010, 11:59 AM, said:

aguahombre, on Sep 20 2010, 10:46 AM, said:

All this means to me is that a double of 2C  maybe should suggest NOT bidding 2S, but rather bidding a frag in a red suit (also shows strengh, so if doubler has a red one-suiter the other 5% of the time; she can bid 2 spades to deny spades or jump in her red suit).

That might need cleaning up, since I just thought of it.  Or trashing if it can't work; we couldn't really have penalty of 2C, and a direct 2D would have to be a normal pass/correct (losing 2D natural).

Huh? Why couldn't we have a penalty double of 2♣? LHO has a weak NT, partner has a single suited hand (presumably spades with more than a minimum spade overcall) and RHO has run out of the double of 1NT to 2♣ natural and to play. While my hand says that we don't (and probably cannot) have a penalty double of 2♣, the bidding doesn't say that.

even worse the bidding seems to be whispering "the opps may sac in ♣"

[aguahombre]

If you treat 14-16 as a weak NT, everything is different; the use of double as a one-suiter of unknown strength vs. a wk NT would not be my choice for starters, so the 2C bid would never happen.

Art: I meant the structure I was thinking about would not allow for a penalty double of 2C and, thus, might not be a good idea; didn't mean that my hand might not want to double 2C for penalty.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2010-September-20, 11:22

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on Sep 20 2010, 12:18 PM, said:

If you treat 14-16 as a weak NT, everything is different; the use of double as a one-suiter of unknown strength vs. a wk NT would not be my choice for starters, so the 2C bid would never happen.

Art: I meant the structure I was thinking about would not allow for a penalty double of 2C and, thus, might not be a good idea; didn't mean that my hand might not want to double 2C for penalty.

Sorry. I was thinking of the 14-16 NT as a weak NT. I treat it as a strong NT for purposes of determining which type of defense is used, and I would use DONT.

Having said that, and given that we are using DONT, I don't (with small letters) see why my double of RHO's 2♣ would not be for penalties on this auction.

I would probably bid 2♦ on the given hand, with the typical Master Solvers' Club disclaimer of "if we can only get by this round, we will be OK." I intend to bid hearts at my next opportunity. Even if partner has a one-suited spade hand, my hand is too good to go out meekly. If partner has spades, he is supposed to have a good hand. And I don't need much to make game in a red suit. Even slam is not out of the question. Partner could hold:

AQJTxx
x
Axx
xxx

Quite frankly, for a double followed by 2♠, this would be a minimum.

[junyi_zhu]

jahol, on Sep 20 2010, 08:53 AM, said:

Sometimes, using specific bidding methods, you may have very specific problem, the rest of the tables is not confronted with (just because of bidding naturally)...

Both lines vulnerable, you have this "nice" hand

8---AKJ85---KQ8543---3

and LHO opens the bidding with 14-16 NT doubled with your partner (D.O.N.T., one-suit hand, usually 6-cards, colour unknown, strength unknown, limited by elementary safety requirements from the lower side and by an eqivalent of 15 points from the upper side). RHO bids 2 clubs - weak - to play. What is your bid?

You should play transfers at three levels here. Still, it's not a good idea to play DONT against 14-16.

[gnasher]

junyi_zhu, on Sep 20 2010, 08:40 PM, said:

You should play transfers at three levels here. Still, it's not a good idea to play DONT.

FYP