[BunnyGo]

Scoring: IMP

(P)-P-(3♣)-4♥
(5♣)-X-(P)-??

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Do you agree with 4 hearts? What do you bid this time?

[bucky]

BunnyGo, on Sep 29 2010, 11:52 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

(P)-P-(3♣)-4♥
(5♣)-X-(P)-??

---

Do you agree with 4 hearts? What do you bid this time?

No, I call director. Maybe the other 3 players have 14 cards each.

[655321]

I think he is using hanp's revolutionary new notation.

[bucky]

655321, on Sep 30 2010, 12:15 AM, said:

I think he is using hanp's revolutionary new notation.

Aha, how cute!

In that case:

1) Yes I agree with the simple 4H. Slam is possible but I need partner to have 2 aces plus picking up HQ. I am usually not that lucky.

2) I pass. I expect 5H to make, but now +800 is likely for us.

[kfay]

I think that frequency-wise it's a tossup between 500 v. 650 and 800 v. 650. The thing that pushes me in favor of pass is that it might be 500 v. -100....

If I pass I'm going to lead the ♠K.

[the hog]

As I only have 10 cards, I would be curious to see the rest of my hand before I commented on the 4H bid.

[jukmoi]

AKJ104 = AKJ10xxxx? I would guess 5♥ since partner might bid six with two aces.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 given that p is a passed hand, 4H is ok, otherwise I would go via X
#2 Now I pass

With kind regards
Marlowe

[hanp]

It's a interesting mixed notation, I'm afraid I can't take credit for this. Perhaps Brian and Fluffy are right that the notation is only useful when you have very long suits.

I definitely agree with 4 hearts. This bid doesn't show 8 hearts, or 10 tricks, but it's still much better than anything else.

I think this is a forcing pass auction. In this kind of auction (a passed hand raise of a preempt) it's usually the case that our opponenents are saccing. It's not necessarily true that the opponents always go down after this start, but playing forcing passes gives us the best chance of getting the decision right.

If pass is forcing, then it follows that partner should double with many hands that do not have an ace. I think it is clear to pass the double.

[Cyberyeti]

Pass, if you're not getting a spade and a diamond trick off this, then one of your KQs is potentially getting ruffed in 5♥, so unless the 3♣ is very bent indeed (I got a very silly result when after a sequence like this opener turned out to be 8410) you will be taking at least 500 off this with no guarantee 5♥ makes. Against this, what has partner doubled on ? he can't exactly have a trump stack, and he has no kings outside the trump suit, so 2 aces or one and the KQ tight of♣, but in that case what has the raiser bid 5♣ on vulnerable ? I would suggest that partner might have one heart but quite likely has none.

I don't mind whether you double first or bid a straight 4♥.

[Free]

655321, on Sep 30 2010, 06:15 AM, said:

I think he is using hanp's revolutionary new notation.

It's a lame attempt, because in Han's notation a singleton is described as "1", not "x"... So this hand has only 10 cards, bleh!

[bucky]

Free, on Sep 30 2010, 06:45 AM, said:

It's a lame attempt, because in Han's notation a singleton is described as "1", not "x"...  So this hand has only 10 cards, bleh!

Well, maybe it is an improvement to use "x" as an alias of "1"...

[BunnyGo]

Free, on Sep 30 2010, 06:45 AM, said:

655321, on Sep 30 2010, 06:15 AM, said:

I think he is using hanp's revolutionary new notation.

It's a lame attempt, because in Han's notation a singleton is described as "1", not "x"... So this hand has only 10 cards, bleh!

Yeah, I'm still not sure how I feel about Han's notation; in particular when I wrote "3" (which was the spot of the x) that was clearly wrong, and when I wrote "1" that just felt weird so I mixed notations. Dunno.

As for what happened, here's the hand:

(P)-P-(3♣)-4♥;
(5♣)-X-(P)-5♥;
AP

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The crowd was correct, I should have sat and lead a spade (or diamond).

[vuroth]

Wow north seriously doubled with probably zero tricks on defense? How does that work?

[bucky]

vuroth, on Sep 30 2010, 03:36 PM, said:

Wow north seriously doubled with probably zero tricks on defense? How does that work?

The double makes sense if pass would have been forcing.

[jdonn]

vuroth, on Sep 30 2010, 03:36 PM, said:

Wow north seriously doubled with probably zero tricks on defense? How does that work?

It's called "forcing pass" and it works great. A better player to question would be west.

[vuroth]

Ok, I know I don't fully grok forcing pass yet, but I thought it only triggered when we'd bid GF on strength. It's not clear that's the case, is it?

[Cyberyeti]

vuroth, on Sep 30 2010, 04:13 PM, said:

Ok, I know I don't fully grok forcing pass yet, but I thought it only triggered when we'd bid GF on strength. It's not clear that's the case, is it?

Exactly, this is not a forcing pass situation, you have no reason to suspect you're beating 5♣, or that you want to bid 5♥, defending 5♣ undoubled is perfectly plausible (give patrner AKQ5 and out or KQJ6).

I've never known something that might be a preempt trigger a forcing pass.

[bucky]

I think in terms of percentage, forcing pass makes sense in this auction: 1st hand passes, 3rd hand preempts, how often can they make game (and in the rare case that they do make, we don't have a good sac or game our way)?

That being said, I don't think it can be assumed, this is still an area of partnership agreement.

[jonottawa]

Wrong section. 100% forcing pass situation if in the right section. If playing with a beginner/intermediate it's a guess and I'd prolly bid 5♥. If partner later explained why he doubled for the right reasons, he gets a gold star (and an apology if I bid 5♥.)