[mgoetze]

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Obviously, some of you will have opened 2♣ instead. Anyway, what now?

[mikeh]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-13, 17:40, said:

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Obviously, some of you will have opened 2♣ instead. Anyway, what now?

Even I would have opened 2♣ Only because I have spades...would happily open at the 1-level with any other suit.

I assume we are not playing constructive raises. Slam is a possibility: picture Kxx xxx Axx Jxxx to see how easy it is.


I can't see how to get there. I thought about a help suit try with 3♥, hoping he plays, as I do, that he has to cue a minor Ace along the way if he is accepting the try. However, even assuming that he has the heart K to accpet (and he doesn't in the methods I play), and has the diamond A, he won't hold the spade K as well, so the slam won't be better than 50% on a diamond lead.

The problem is that what I really want to know is his minor holdings, even more than his heart holding...and I can't find out.

So I bid 4♠. And remind myself next time to open 2♣(not that doing so would solve all problems).

[rduran1216]

mikeh, on 2010-December-13, 18:14, said:

Even I would have opened 2♣ Only because I have spades...would happily open at the 1-level with any other suit.

I assume we are not playing constructive raises. Slam is a possibility: picture Kxx xxx Axx Jxxx to see how easy it is.


I can't see how to get there. I thought about a help suit try with 3♥, hoping he plays, as I do, that he has to cue a minor Ace along the way if he is accepting the try. However, even assuming that he has the heart K to accpet (and he doesn't in the methods I play), and has the diamond A, he won't hold the spade K as well, so the slam won't be better than 50% on a diamond lead.

The problem is that what I really want to know is his minor holdings, even more than his heart holding...and I can't find out.

So I bid 4♠. And remind myself next time to open 2♣(not that doing so would solve all problems).

I'm bidding 3D to get a clue about it, if p bids 3S, Ill bid 4, if he bids 4S I'll bid 4NT, tough hand, probably depends on my day

[mtvesuvius]

4♣ splinter, the more I think about it the more I like it

Otherwise I agree with Mike, I'd bid 3♥ if not feeling creative.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2010-December-13, 18:14, said:

....So I bid 4♠. And remind myself next time to open 2♣(not that doing so would solve all problems).

Indeed it would not solve all the problems in this hand, if not makes it worse..

2♣--2♦
2♠--3♠
....

We have now less info about the partner's hand (compared to constructive 2 major bidders over 1 major) and less space to discover it....Anyway, i agree that this hand can make slam and it doesn't need too much, as well as can go down in slam with more than expected in pd's hand (like he may have remaining 2 keycards + ♥Q and we still may have no play for slam)

We don't play constructive 2♠, so i think i would just bid 4♠ and hope 5♠ is going down or has at least some guessing to do.

[Free]

I don't mind 1♠ although it's very close! Now I'd just bid 2NT, generally asking for features.

I don't like splintering ♣, partner will have poor ♣s and will like his hand too much for no reason at all. I'd rather splinter ♦.

[gnasher]

Yes, splintering 4♣ is really asking for trouble. Partner will drive slam with Kxx Kxx Qxxx xxx.

4♦ is much more effective - I don't mind if he insists on slam with Kxx KQx xxxx xxx.

[gwnn]

No slam thanks. And yes I'd have opened 2♣ - what rebids do I have?

[nige1]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-13, 17:40, said:

Obviously, some of you will have opened 2♣ instead. Anyway, what now?

---

IMO

• 2♣ = 10, 1♠ = 8.
• 3♥ = 10. 3♦ = 9, 4♠ = 7, 4♦ = 4. For slam to be good, partner needs something like ♥K & ♦AQ or ♦A & ♥KQ or ♠K & ♥K & ♦A or ♠ K & ♦A & ♣Jxxx. Six-ace RKC trial bids help with some of these. Over 3♥, responder bids 3♠ = no interest. Other steps show 3, 1, 2, 2 + ♠Q. ♥K and ♠K both vount as aces,

[Phil]

MrAce, on 2010-December-13, 20:05, said:

Indeed it would not solve all the problems in this hand, if not makes it worse..

2♣--2♦
2♠--3♠
....

We have now less info about the partner's hand (compared to constructive 2 major bidders over 1 major) and less space to discover it....Anyway, i agree that this hand can make slam and it doesn't need too much, as well as can go down in slam with more than expected in pd's hand (like he may have remaining 2 keycards + ♥Q and we still may have no play for slam)

We don't play constructive 2♠, so i think i would just bid 4♠ and hope 5♠ is going down or has at least some guessing to do.

I would open 2♣, but (@MikeH) I would also do so if I held hearts instead of spades.

While it is true that we do not know much about partner's hand (after 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♠ - 3♠), he knows a whole lot about ours. Good agreements help, but a non-serious 3N would tell partner, "I am a minimum, cue if you like your hand". There is a also a reliable inference that partner did not splinter over 2♠, which further limits our slam prospects. If partner did not move positively over 3N, then I would feel pretty confident we do not have 6. Only a strong club can solve these problems with any kind of certainty.

In the actual auction, I'll try 2N. Hopefully partner can tell me what suit he'd accept a game try in. I can then cuebid and possibly extract some meaningful information.

[rhm]

MrAce, on 2010-December-13, 20:05, said:

Indeed it would not solve all the problems in this hand, if not makes it worse..

2♣--2♦
2♠--3♠
....

We have now less info about the partner's hand (compared to constructive 2 major bidders over 1 major) and less space to discover it....

But partner has more information and this is the whole point of the 2♣ opening bid. You do not open 2♣ for your own sake, you do this to describe your hand to partner.
The 2♣ opener simply bids 4♠ after 3♠, showing a minimum one-suiter. Partner with two keycards, the ♦ ace and the ♠ king, and some other minor goodies will continue over 4♠ and pass otherwise.

Rainer Herrmann

[Hanoi5]

I'd bid 4♣, I don't think it has to be a splinter, just a cue-bid. I might bid 3♦ which I play as a long suit try, but then if I get the 4♠ response, what am I to do?

[mgoetze]

On the actual hand, I bid 3♦. I planned to raise 3♠ to 4♠, but partner bid 4♠, so I asked for keycards, found none, and signed off in 5♠, making exactly (partner had ♦KJxxx, ♠K was offside, ♦A was onside).

One thing I liked about 3♦ was the "Zia effect" - it might scare opps out of leading diamonds when they ought to do so.

[MrAce]

@ Phil & Rhm ; I guess you did not read what i wrote completely. Partner's having more idea about our hand will NOT work on our favour everytime since he will drag us to slam with ♠K +♦A+ another no use Q ♥ . Basically he WILL love his honours when he holds 2 keycards. As Mikeh said, a Jxxx ♣ is as valuable as ♥ K if not more.

Kxx Qxxx AJxx xx - Good luck with solving your problems.

Kxx KQJx KJx xx - Good luck on ♦ lead, fancy non serious 3 NT just disabled us from playing 6NT from pd's hand, which is cold.

Kxx QJx KJxx xxx - Another 10 hcp even if ♦ Q is well placed or if not led even if u guessed it, still needs ♥ finesse.

xxxx Qxx AQJx Jx

I tried to say " can make slam on very few cards, can have no play when pd has a lot"

Now i agree opening 2♣ tells our pd a lot about our hand. Just don't think it will work on our benefit all the time though. Especially this hand. 2 small ♦ makes this hand VERY vulnerable. And everyone's main goal will be to spot ♦ stopper before they reach to slam, which reduces to make other constructive bids untill they spot it even with agreements like serious or non serious 3 NT which may not be used by every pdship. If you do have a method to learn Jxxx or longer ♣, then more power to you. I don't in my system. Even Jxxx ♣ doesn't warranth a lay down slam.

EDIT : Don't get me wrong, i am not saying opening 2♣ is wrong. I would have opened it 2♣ myself, for totally different reasons. As most of you noticed by now, i am from europe and my style different than some of you. I am too agressive for bidding games, and extremely conservative with slam bidding. I don't even believe in making game trial bids, it is not even scientific to me. I believe when we bid a borderline game, a good outcome depends on 3 more factors than what me and my pd has and this is at the 3rd rank of priority among all 4. I would have opened this hand 2♣ for not missing a game rather than to be able to find a slam.

Opening 2♣ works better with this hand when pd has weak hands compared to 9+ hcp hands imo.

[Fluffy]

MrAce, on 2010-December-14, 14:06, said:

@ Phil & Rhm ; I guess you did not read what i wrote completely. Partner's having more idea about our hand will NOT work on our favour everytime since he will drag us to slam with ♠K +♦A+ another no use Q ♥ . Basically he WILL love his honours when he holds 2 keycards. As Mikeh said, a Jxxx ♣ is as valuable as ♥ K if not more.

Kxx Qxxx AJxx xx - Good luck with solving your problems.

Kxx KQJx KJx xx - Good luck on ♦ lead, fancy non serious 3 NT just disabled us from playing 6NT from pd's hand, which is cold.

Kxx QJx KJxx xxx - Another 10 hcp even if ♦ Q is well placed or if not led even if u guessed it, still needs ♥ finesse.

xxxx Qxx AQJx Jx

I admit I didn't read all your post this time, I stopped when you gave 3, 10 counts and a 13 count for his single raise.


IMO there are times for a KQJ or AKQ splinter, but that is when you are trully loaded and want to force partner to cuebid. Here we ain't loaded enough for it to work.

On this hand I'd bid 3 red, hearts for my long suit try, and continue only when partner does make a cuebid by himself

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2010-December-15, 08:27, said:

I admit I didn't read all your post this time, I stopped when you gave 3, 10 counts and a 13 count for his single raise.

Are u deciding to open 2♣ or not, after you already opened 1 and pd makes a single raise ? I don't think u can do that unless u have a magic time machine that can make u travel back and reconsider your first choice of opening

You are missing the point, reading is required. If u read it all, you could see those hands i gave was a possibilty that your pd may have held if u opened 2♣ and instead of working on your benefit, this time they would carry u to some slams where u dont even have a play.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Hanoi5, on 2010-December-14, 09:55, said:

I'd bid 4♣, I don't think it has to be a splinter, just a cue-bid. I might bid 3♦ which I play as a long suit try, but then if I get the 4♠ response, what am I to do?

I'm intrigued by the 4C! , ostensibly a splinter. Partner obviously will see he has "no wastage" in Cl ( even with the J x x x ) and will likely make a cue bid ( Diam or Hts ).

But let's look at his point count. Playing 2/1, the 2S response is 8,9 exact . At best he has the remaining 3 Kings... and that makes the slam 50% at best ( Diam Ace onside ) .
He can't have and A K K because that would have solicited a forcing 1NT!, and next the 3 card limit raise.

If he has a hK and dA you have a 50% chance on the Sp finesse.
If he has the dAK, you still have a 50% chance ( Sp finesse ).
If he has the sK and dA, you are bound to have 2 red losers.

• If you go 4C!, and partner bids a 4H!(cue ) you can sign off in 4S since he denied a Diam Ctrl.

• If you get a 4D! Ctrl cue ... hell, go for it with 4NT RKC just to make sure he has at least 1 key card.

If not, stop in 5S and pray.
If so, go to 6S... and pray

[Fluffy]

MrAce, on 2010-December-15, 15:54, said:

Are u deciding to open 2♣ or not, after you already opened 1 and pd makes a single raise ? I don't think u can do that unless u have a magic time machine that can make u travel back and reconsider your first choice of opening ;

Ok, that makes a lot more sense, I should've read all sorry

[ewleongusa]

mgoetze, on 2010-December-13, 17:40, said:

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Obviously, some of you will have opened 2♣ instead. Anyway, what now?

A slam that you would want to be in is possible if partner has either D AKQ or H KQ and D A.
You have a shot at getting to slam if you bid 3C as a help suit game try.
If partner has a maximum but obviously no club help he might bid 3D holding D AKQ or 3H holding H KQ and DA.
Next, I plan to bid 4C to show serious slam intent. If partner can bid 4D then 6S has to be surely a decent bet.

Eric Leong