[the_dude]

IMPS

---

My feeling is N= 75%, S= 25%.

Concur?

[mgoetze]

50% each for not insisting on playing Gazzilli.

In other news, I think this game makes less than 68% of the time.

[ArtK78]

This post is in the SAYC and 2/1 Discussion thread, and Gazilli is not part of either, so that is not the issue.

Unfortunately, SAYC and 2/1 do not handle intermediate strength hands very well (hence the use of Gazilli and a host of other methods to handle these hands). So North is forced to overbid his hand with a jump rebid, underbid his hand as he did, or misdescribe his hand with a 2NT rebid. All have flaws, and the actual choice led to a missed game.

2♥ is not an error (although it was timid). It was just an unfortunate choice.

As for South, I cannot imagine why he would do anything other than what he did.

[gwnn]

Don't feel strongly about this one. Both players could have bid 3♥. Personally I would never do so from South but would probably do it from North.

So I guess I do feel strongly about this one after all: 50% North 0% South.

[the_dude]

The only reason I gave South 25% is that game is possible on a host of 5-5 hands on the order of AKxxx KQxxx xx x or other variations which may require a finesse but are certainly 50% or better.

That being said, I think pass by S is pretty normal.

[mike777]

100% north

[Free]

mgoetze, on 2011-January-05, 07:14, said:

50% each for not insisting on playing Gazzilli.

In other news, I think this game makes less than 68% of the time.

I guess everyone knows I'm a big fan of Gazzilli, but this comment is totally irrelevant imo. What's better after 1♠-1NT-2♣!-2♠ showing <8HCP and 2-3♠? You'll even miss the ♥ fit! Even when playing 2♣ as "17+ or nat" responder will bid negative...

[mike777]

Free, on 2011-January-05, 08:52, said:

I guess everyone knows I'm a big fan of Gazzilli, but this comment is totally irrelevant imo. What's better after 1♠-1NT-2♣!-2♠ showing <8HCP and 2-3♠? You'll even miss the ♥ fit! Even when playing 2♣ as "17+ or nat" responder will bid negative...

Many play BART here but I understand many on the forum are a big fan of Gazzilli.

[Fluffy]

North is close to something more, he didn't pick it, so be it, not something to care much about really.

[whereagles]

I'd say more like 80% north, 20% south, though both took perfectly reasonable actions.

[hotShot]

You can't blame anyone for making the systemic bid.
So there is no blame to assign.

South has no options to do anything different, but North had some options that could have lead to a different result.

The combination of ♠ and ♥ with this semi strong hand is a typical problem hand in both SAYC and 2/1.
North has a few bad ways to deviate from the system that could help, but probably won't in this specific case.

North could open 1NT to right side a potential NT contract, if the partnership does allow occasional 5cM's, but that won't help.
North could bid 2NT instead of 2♥ but that lie would miss the ♥ fit.
North could try to force, bidding 2 of a minor, if that is agreed.
North could try to bid 3♥, but that would misdescribe his shape, and would lead to a desaster if South has one of then many slightly different possible hands.

Do we really want our partner to guess one of these if he has a similar hand again?

[mgoetze]

Free, on 2011-January-05, 08:52, said:

I guess everyone knows I'm a big fan of Gazzilli, but this comment is totally irrelevant imo. What's better after 1♠-1NT-2♣!-2♠ showing <8HCP and 2-3♠? You'll even miss the ♥ fit! Even when playing 2♣ as "17+ or nat" responder will bid negative...

Maybe you should reduce the requirements on 1♠-1NT-2♣-2♥ in your Gazzilli structure.

[Lurpoa]

the_dude, on 2011-January-05, 06:55, said:

IMPS

---

My feeling is N= 75%, S= 25%.

Concur?

This is IMPS. N cannot risk a pass from his partner. His hand is clearly worth a 3♥ bid. I know, partner can be aboslute minimum, and no fit, but even then....posibilities....3♠ in a 5-2 fit should be reasonable

On 2♥, S can only visualize game with a hand such as N actually has - but why then did he not bid 3♥ - and many hands in which 3♥ won't make.....

[pooltuna]

100% North for not upgrading! Aces Kings and Tens are undervalued!

[JLOGIC]

Enough hands like this will make you switch to strong club. There is no great answer. Bidding 3H with the north hand seems a little ridiculous (not just under high carded but seems wrong with such good minors). Bidding 2N is possible, but that might lose hearts, no doubt north was hoping for 1S-1N-2H-2S-2N which would describe his hand perfectly.

North should be aware to jumpshift a little bit lighter with the majors because of both the increased chance of being able to make game, and the decreased chance that partner can bid over 2H compared to 2D and 2C (basically he won't false preference into a stiff), but I agree with his action.

[wank]

Lurpoa, on 2011-January-05, 09:33, said:

This is IMPS. N cannot risk a pass from his partner. His hand is clearly worth a 3♥ bid. I know, partner can be aboslute minimum, and no fit, but even then....posibilities....3♠ in a 5-2 fit should be reasonable

there's no alighting in 3♠ once north bids 3♥ - it's GF. south can continue with 3♠ on an 11 count with nothing better to bid.

[nigel_k]

100% to North.

Sorry, but this is just bean counting taken to the extreme. North has all aces and kings and excellent intermediates. Even valuing that hand as 18 is too little. Kaplan/Rubens rates it as 20.1 which is too much but you get the idea. Just do whatever you would normally do with 19 HCP and 5422 shape. Without gadgets that is definitely 3♥.

[mikeh]

Justin got it exactly right in my view. Assigning blame to either player is classic resulting. The methods don't handle this combination well.....but that argues for different methods, not for abusing the methods we have.

[gnasher]

I've never played Gazilli, so I hadn't realised that it didn't cope with this hand. That seems a bit of a defect.

There are at least two reasonably simple methods available that do let opener bid this hand sensibly:

- Transfers. Opener transfers to hearts and then bids 2NT.

- 2♣ as a puppet to 2♦. Any action preceded by 2♣ shows a better hand than bidding it directly, so 1♠-1NT;2♣-2♦;2♥ is invitational.

[mgoetze]

gnasher, on 2011-January-05, 14:10, said:

I've never played Gazilli, so I hadn't realised that it didn't cope with this hand. That seems a bit of a defect.

There are at least two reasonably simple methods available that do let opener bid this hand sensibly:

- Transfers. Opener transfers to hearts and then bids 2NT.

- 2♣ as a puppet to 2♦. Any action preceded by 2♣ shows a better hand than bidding it directly, so 1♠-1NT;2♣-2♦;2♥ is invitational.

Well, I tried to get people to agree what standard Gazzilli is, and everyone refused: "everyone plays it differently, there is no standard!" Free's Gazzilli method does not cope with this hand, but that doesn't mean that none do.

As for 2♣ puppet to 2♦, you might want to look up Riton 2♣ on the BBF Systems Index.