[mike777]

http://online.wsj.co...3528698754.html




were never allowed to




.• attend a sleepover

• have a playdate

• be in a school play

• complain about not being in a school play

• watch TV or play computer games

• choose their own extracurricular activities

• get any grade less than an A

• not be the No. 1 student in every subject except gym and drama

• play any instrument other than the piano or violin

[nigel_k]

Don't forget selection bias. If the parents had no drive or ambition and were content with mediocrity they would have stayed in China. I think children of immigrants have above average success everywhere. And I really doubt that any mother can turn an average kid into a math whiz or musical prodigy. The best they can do is be lucky to have a smart kid and then not screw the kid up, and I'm far from certain that Chinese parents are better at that than anyone else.

[blackshoe]

I don't know from Chinese mothers, but in Japan, where parents apparently have the same attitude towards their childrens' performance in school, there is, as I remember it, a very high suicide rate amongst college students who don't get good grades.

[JLOGIC]

Mike you must be a Chinese Mother because you are superior to everyone imo. Epic thread

[kenberg]

Here is a review from the Post of Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, the Times article is an excerpt from the book. [I was mixed up, I thought the Times article was a review of another book.] The reviewer of Battle Hymn, Liz Chang, is a "hopelessly Western mother married into a Chinese family".

http://www.washingto...1010706543.html

Part of her review:

Quote

Sometimes, you're not quite sure whether Chua is being serious or deadpan. For example, she says she tried to apply Chinese parenting to the family's two dogs before accepting that the only thing they were good at was expressing affection. "Although it is true that some dogs are on bomb squads or drug-sniffing teams," she concluded, "it is perfectly fine for most dogs not to have a profession, or even any special skills."

A Black Lab that we had, now deceased, was originally to be a guide dog. After our period of puppy walking was completed, he happily went off to Guide Dog College but flunked out and came back to live out his life with us. I also tried to interest him in bomb sniffing as an alternative career path but with no more success than Ms. Chua had. Oh these young ones, what can we do?

[y66]

The title of that article is obv. provocative. It seems to me that the article is really about how many Chinese parents approach the problem of building confidence in their kids and how this differs from a so-called Western approach. Some of that stuff is pretty nutty, including that garbage comment. Some of it makes good sense.

[gwnn]

No true Scotsman.

But I tend to agree with the following (if we use suitable working definitions for the relevant words):

Quote

nothing is fun until you're good at it.

but I know not many people feel the same way, and I think it's good that not many people feel the same way.

[y66]

Sleepovers are overrated, or so says this gal, who also has a thing about "garbage".

Excerpt:

Growing up in Florida, she was made uncomfortable by childhood sleepovers. “I never liked people touching my stuff,” she said. “I always wanted to put it right back.”

“This is just who I am,” she said. “I’ve taken my personal neuroses and made a business out of it.”

Maybe neurosis is underrated.

[mgoetze]

gwnn, on 2011-January-10, 09:49, said:

No true Scotsman.

But I tend to agree with the following (if we use suitable working definitions for the relevant words):

Quote

nothing is fun until you're good at it.

but I know not many people feel the same way, and I think it's good that not many people feel the same way.

I started playing Diplomacy. Then I became one of the top 200 tournament players in the world. Then I realised that I would never get into the top 20, at least not without a serious personality transplant. So I tired of it.

I started playing Go. Then I became one of the top 200 tournament players in Germany. Then I realised that, even if I put in 4 hours of hard work every day and eventually became one of the top players in Europe... there would still be thousands of Korean teenagers who could beat the crap out of me. So I tired of it.

I started playing Doppelkopf. Then I became one of the top 200 tournament players in Germany (which is the same thing as the world in this case). Then I realised that, by the time I got to the top 10, all the other good players would have died or quit in favour of bridge or poker. So I quit first.

I suspect I won't be getting into the top 200 of the bridge world anytime soon. But for now, getting better still seems fun, and not like a chore.

BTW, interesting article.

[ggwhiz]

I have my own theory, superficial at best.

A disproportianally large number of our 10 year old Bridge students that pick the game up and progress fast are Asian. Just in conversation and asking who has played whatever card game in the past seems to show that they (and a smaller number of others) play strategy games as a family activity. Some have Friday or Saturday nights designated as game nights.

I'm guessing that culturally, this is something the Chinese parents continue to do where we used to but stopped, too busy and TV, the Internet and computer games are babysitters.

Meanwhile, a lot of time and hands on effort goes into developing the mental agility skills of these kids.

[hrothgar]

I found the piece downright offensive.

Consider the following quote:

Quote

Chinese parents demand perfect grades because they believe that their child can get them. If their child doesn't get them, the Chinese parent assumes it's because the child didn't work hard enough. That's why the solution to substandard performance is always to excoriate, punish and shame the child.

I know what would have happened if my folks had tried this kind of ***** with me. I would have written them out of my life because I see no reason to waste my time being punished / shamed because I don't live up to someone else's vision for me.

I will be forced to learn either the violin or the piano?
This activity defines my set of recreational activities?
***** that...

I'm quite sure that the parenting approaches that Chua recommends can produce some fantastic results on the high end. At the same time, I suspect that it leaves a whole lot of wreakage behind (both in terms of emotionally abused children and shatered families)

It will be interesting to see how a set of behaviours that strike me as downright abusive work in a society that doesn't place quite so much of a premium on filial loyalty.

Chua's article contains the following quote:

Quote

Chinese parents believe that their kids owe them everything. The reason for this is a little unclear, but it's probably a combination of Confucian filial piety and the fact that the parents have sacrificed and done so much for their children. (And it's true that Chinese mothers get in the trenches, putting in long grueling hours personally tutoring, training, interrogating and spying on their kids.) Anyway, the understanding is that Chinese children must spend their lives repaying their parents by obeying them and making them proud.

By contrast, I don't think most Westerners have the same view of children being permanently indebted to their parents. My husband, Jed, actually has the opposite view. "Children don't choose their parents," he once said to me. "They don't even choose to be born. It's parents who foist life on their kids, so it's the parents' responsibility to provide for them. Kids don't owe their parents anything. Their duty will be to their own kids." This strikes me as a terrible deal for the Western parent.

I suspect that this difference in vision is extremely significant. I wonder how happy all these Chinese mother's will be when their sons and daughters realize that they don't actually need to spend their lives repaying their parents for decades of abuse? Or, alternatively, they decide that said "repayment" involves cutting dear old mom out of their life?

[matmat]

Mother Superior jump the gun.

[kenberg]

I am somewhat stunned to find myself agreeing once again with brothgar.

Really I see much of what she is saying as amounting to "My husband disagrees with me, my friends disagree with me, everyone disagrees with me, but I am Chinese and I know I am right".

I also was stunned by this idea that kids owe their parents an enormous debt. My priorities are:
1. I am grateful that my kids are having satisfying lives. Grateful to them, grateful to chance, just grateful.
2. I am glad that they continue to want me in their life.

If I were told that I can have either item 1 or item 2 but not both, it is absolutely no contest.

3. I don't plan on spending my life apologizing for my many flaws as a parent but I am aware of them and I am so happy they survived.


If my kids owe me anything at all, they can make full payment by having a good life.

I believe this view is broadly shared by other parents and if someone wants to say it's Western, let's hear it for the West.

[Fluffy]

my mom is better than yours.

[PassedOut]

kenberg, on 2011-January-11, 11:45, said:

I am somewhat stunned to find myself agreeing once again with brothgar.

Really I see much of what she is saying as amounting to "My husband disagrees with me, my friends disagree with me, everyone disagrees with me, but I am Chinese and I know I am right".

I also was stunned by this idea that kids owe their parents an enormous debt. My priorities are:
1. I am grateful that my kids are having satisfying lives. Grateful to them, grateful to chance, just grateful.
2. I am glad that they continue to want me in their life.

If I were told that I can have either item 1 or item 2 but not both, it is absolutely no contest.

3. I don't plan on spending my life apologizing for my many flaws as a parent but I am aware of them and I am so happy they survived.


If my kids owe me anything at all, they can make full payment by having a good life.

I believe this view is broadly shared by other parents and if someone wants to say it's Western, let's hear it for the West.

Same here.

I've told each of my sons more than once that my ambition as a father is that he will, in the years to come, look back in satisfaction at the life he has lived. (Even if Zac never finishes college).

[y66]

Tiger Mother responds.

Excerpt:

Do you think that strict, “Eastern” parenting eventually helps children lead happy lives as adults?

When it works well, absolutely! And by working well, I mean when high expectations are coupled with love, understanding and parental involvement. This is the gift my parents gave me, and what I hope I’m giving my daughters. I’ve also taught law students of all backgrounds for 17 years, and I’ve met countless students raised the “tough immigrant” way (by parents from Pakistan, India, Nigeria, Korea, Jamaica, Haiti, Iran, Ireland, etc.) who are thriving, independent, bold, creative, hilarious and, at least to my eyes, as happy as anyone. But I also know of people raised with “tough love” who are not happy and who resent their parents. There is no easy formula for parenting, no right approach (I don’t believe, by the way, that Chinese parenting is superior—a splashy headline, but I didn’t choose it). The best rule of thumb I can think of is that love, compassion and knowing your child have to come first, whatever culture you’re from. It doesn’t come through in the excerpt, but my actual book is not a how-to guide; it’s a memoir, the story of our family’s journey in two cultures, and my own eventual transformation as a mother. Much of the book is about my decision to retreat from the strict “Chinese” approach, after my younger daughter rebelled at 13.


Amy Chua with her daughters, Sophia and Louisa.
Photo credit: Erin Patrice O’Brien for The Wall Street Journal

[kenberg]

I heard some discussion on NPR yesterday. Maybe the book should at least get credit for provoking some thought.

My own upbringing was so far removed from what she envisions that it seems like two different worlds. I was well taken care of, although I was left to my own devices far more often than many modern children, and I look back on much of my childhood as a happy adventure. Not, however, one that remotely resembled life in the Chua family. For which I would be delighted to express my thanks to my parents.

[y66]

From NYT Discussion re: Is Extreme Parenting Effective

Balancing Freedom With Discipline Updated January 14, 2011, 02:00 PM

By Yan Sun, a native of Sichuan, who has lived in the United States since 1985 and been a professor of political science at the City University of New York since 1992. She has published two books as well as numerous academic papers about China.

"Teaching in a college with a sizable population of Jewish, Indian and other ethnic groups, I can identify attitudinal traits that can only be loosely termed “Chinese.” The idea that Chinese mothers have some special or "superior" parenting style is at best a misconception, and at worse, nonsense.

"But if we want some sort of explanation, we can look to the Chinese culture for some clue. In China, the strong emphasis on striving in education comes from a long history of Confucian teachings and a tradition of grooming the best and brightest for the formidable imperial exams.

"In contemporary times, strict and result-oriented parenting also has to do with anxieties created by a ubiquitous testing environment. In China, it is exacerbated by the one-child policy. The gaokao (college entrance exam), for example, has even been known to push students to suicide. Concerns over academic competition and professional opportunities have fueled demand for education and skill attainment by Chinese parents for their children.

"There are decided benefits to a rigorous parenting style. Persistent drilling of skills can help children acquire proficiency in certain areas. Offering direction about career paths can help lead students toward more employable fields. But increasingly, Chinese and Asian Americans are paying attention to the downsides of this type of parenting. What often gets lost are individuality, creativity and leadership skills.

"We worry about the paucity of Nobel laureates in the sciences in China, despite outstanding international test scores from Chinese students. We lament the gap between Chinese/Asian Americans’ academic achievements and the relatively few who reach top management ranks in the United States.

"Chinese parents everywhere are changing. My family is a case in point. We're demanding, but encouraging of our children. We never had a piano in our home because we did not understand why every Asian kid seems to play the piano. We let our kids choose their extracurricular activities, although the math team takes precedence over sports teams, which in turn comes before saxophone lessons. We may be disappointed that our older son may not major in physics, but at our suggestion, he wants to combine his economics major with mathematics. And yes, they should strive for A’s, but they will not be taken to task for lower grades as long as they make earnest efforts."

[barmar]

I assume everything being discussed applies mostly just to urban Chinese. Isn't the majority of the country made up of peasants? They're presumably not all forcing their kids to practice the violin and grooming them for advanced university degrees.

[kenberg]

barmar, on 2011-January-16, 16:06, said:

I assume everything being discussed applies mostly just to urban Chinese. Isn't the majority of the country made up of peasants? They're presumably not all forcing their kids to practice the violin and grooming them for advanced university degrees.

A very good question. My father came to this country when he was ten, with his older brother who was sixteen. He was on his own after a couple of years in elementary school. I'm not sure he ever learned to spell violin. My childhood was fine, very good in fact, but it did not involve violins. I assume there are some kids in China with similar backgrounds.

Too the extent we can learn something from Ms. Chua's story, it's fine. I never care much for this my way is better than your way stuff.