[volvox1955]

Hi all,

I am playing in a casual lunchtime bridge game at work. The bidding system that I am familiar with is SAYC. But my bridge friends play a different system that I am completely unfamiliar with...and I cannot seem to find any information on it. I am hoping someone out there can point me in the right direction.

The main feature of the system is that a 1 club opening bid is forcing unless there is an intervening bid by the LHO. 1 club bid simply means that the opener has 13 high card points. The opener may or may not have a five card minor. An opening bid of 1 diamond will generally promise a five card diamond suit. An opening of 1 heart and spade guarantees five in the suit.

If I open as South, my partner must have 10 points in order to bid if West happens to overcall or bid a takeout double. otherwise 6 points is sufficient for a 1 over 1 raise. The strongest player in this game called this system the big club convention. When I google "big club" the systems I find are not the system these gentlemen are playing.

My knowledge of SAYC has tended to hurt my game in this group. If South opens 1 of a minor, and West passes, a raise of 1 in a major by NORTH promises a five card suit. There are very few contracts where trumps are split 4-4 between declarer and dummy. I think the system also leads to more game contracts in minor suits than SAYC.

I would be very appreciative if anyone recognizes this system and can tell me where to find a more complete description of it (and the logic behind it).

Thanks
Jeff

[TylerE]

I think this is called the "bad" club system. I'd play against it for money at any stakes the opponents choose.

[matmat]

Hi. Welcome to the forums. I don't know what system it is that your coworkers are playing. Maybe someone else here will recognize it.

I would not be surprised if this is a system that one of them had learned at a home rubber bridge game and taught to the others. You could just ask your colleagues where it came from?

[jjbrr]

Hi Volvox. Welcome to the forums. It sounds to me like your opponents are playing a modified version of a short-club system that many people play, except they have the agreement that partner can't pass a 1C opener (because it can be made on a 2-card suit). My guess is normally their 1♣ opener shows 3+ clubs just like in SAYC, except with 4432 shape, they also open 1♣, and they don't want partner to pass. But I'm just speculating because I'm not really familiar with it either.

Edit: Sorry, I suppose this could be bid on one club, in the case of 4441 shape, which is more reason they play it forcing.

[jjbrr]

Also, TylerE, it would be prudent not to challenge strangers who play rubber bridge regularly to a game for any stakes. Just because they don't play duplicate doesn't mean they can't wipe the floor with you.

And that's not even to mention what sort of "special" agreements they might play, though I'm sure that's not really an issue here.

[Mbodell]

Unless the other responses haven't made it clear, this is a very non-standard system.

There are a couple of players near me who play a 5551 system with a forcing "normal strength" opening 1♣ bid. 5551 means that the minimum length to bid with ♠♥♦ is 5, while the minimum with ♣ is 1. More standard with duplicate players in the US is 5533 (or 5542).

Some of the players near me who do it, only do it to benefit from the extra knowledge that 1♦ means 5+. Others add some form of Montreal relay where the major responses to 1♣ promise 5 cards and a 1♦ response promises a 4 card major.

Either way, learn the system if you want, but it will not be very transferable. You'd be better advised to learn SA or 2/1 if what you wanted is to be able to play with a wider range of people.

[volvox1955]

Thanks to all who responded.

To Mbodell.... I will look into 5551 and the variants you mention to see if it matches the system these folks seem to be using. I am aware that this lunchtime group's system is non-transferable. I understand enough about SA to get by and have played in a few novice duplicate games. I do not know too many conventions (just Blackwood, Stayman and weak 2's)...but then they do not use many conventions either...not even weak 2's.

I suspect the system may be ad hoc. This game started years and years ago...some of the original players have retired and the newbies learn this system that has been in place. The players are pretty easy going which is one reason why I continue to play in it. But making some of the adjustments have been difficult....it is a bit of a dilemma. I kibbitzed a hand on which one of the players opened 1 club with a 19-point hand and five good spades. The idea seemed to be "I have got opening strength..and I will show my suit and whopper of a hand after I get some basic info from you partner." I can see it preserved bidding room but I think there is a greater downside in that it failed to convey important information at the first opportunity.

[Mbodell]

You probably already know this, but I should add there are common "big club" systems where 1♣ is an artificial strong opening bid. Typically though these systems play that the 1♣ is strong, like 16+, and that with a normal 13 point hand you open something else. Typically in these systems 1♦ is a catch-all bid for unbalanced hands without the majors or enough values for 1♣.

It isn't typically played with a 5+ 1 diamond bid, but you could imagine a system though where 1♦, 1♥, 1♠, and 2♣ were all natural 5+ suits with minimum openers, 2♦ was mini-roman with 4441 hands, and 1nt was balanced minimums. Then 1♣ is for the non-minimum openers. Probably not the soundest of systems, but likely pretty intuitive and natural for easy bidding.

[jjbrr]

volvox1955, on 2011-June-11, 23:30, said:

I kibbitzed a hand on which one of the players opened 1 club with a 19-point hand and five good spades. The idea seemed to be "I have got opening strength..and I will show my suit and whopper of a hand after I get some basic info from you partner." I can see it preserved bidding room but I think there is a greater downside in that it failed to convey important information at the first opportunity.

You're correct in your assessment that it's better to open 1♠ with this sort of hand unless the 1♣ can specifically contain strong hands with 5-card majors, and partner has a way to learn about that.

If you open 1♣, partner will never expect you to have a 5-card major (unless you have 5-card major and a longer minor). If you open 1M with 19 HCP, you can still show your strength later. Finding a fit is more important than taking a circuitous route to show your strength.

[RAY0548]

I don't like this opener, is it like a weak no trump bid when playing 5 card majors and strong no trump??

[Zelandakh]

 RAY0548, on 2024-September-02, 02:26, said:

I don't like this opener, is it like a weak no trump bid when playing 5 card majors and strong no trump??

No, it is like a standard short club but also includes a 4441♣ hand. It is a recognised opening structure that has been played at very high levels. And perhaps it would be wise to point out at this stage that this is a thread from 2011. I would guess that the OP is not really still very interested in gathering information on this system. I would generally suggest starting with threads under a year old and working backwards rather than the reverse.

[jillybean]

T-Walsh?