[gnasher]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-August-07, 03:43, said:

Opening 3N seems like a completely random bid

Isn't that the point of the convention?

[whereagles]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-August-07, 03:43, said:

Opening 3N seems like a completely random bid

Just like any other preempt.

[nige1]

 JLOGIC, on 2011-August-07, 03:43, said:

Opening 3N seems like a completely random bid

Agreeing, I think:

• In principle, the gambling 3N opener is flawed, because when 3N is the right contract, the convention usually wrong-sides it.
• IMO, in first two seats, as here, a gambling 3N should be disciplined, so responder can make informed decisions. The normal conventional understanding precludes possession of two aces.

[VM1973]

 nige1, on 2011-August-11, 03:04, said:

Agreeing, I think:

• In principle, the gambling 3N opener is flawed, because when 3N is the right contract, the convention usually wrong-sides it.
• IMO, in first two seats, as here, a gambling 3N should be disciplined, so responder can make informed decisions. The normal conventional understanding precludes possession of two aces.

I agree that the gambling 3NT usually wrongsides the contract, which was why there was a move afoot to make 3♣ solid and 3NT broken but as far as I know the technical details never got worked out to anyone's satisfaction.

[whereagles]

I veemently dispute the claim that gambling 3NT often wrong-sides the contract. I've been playing that convention for the last 15 years or so and I've yet to see a case where wrong-siding was the difference between making and failing. I've seen the 7-card suit not breaking like 2 or 3 times (Jxxx on an opponent), but never wrong-siding.

Besides, those who criticise the gambling 3NT fail to see its main advantage: a simple bid that shows one's hand to 99% accuracy while remaining at a reasonably safe level. Wrong-siding is a tertiary worry and putting it as first priority is a technical mistake.

[Cyberyeti]

 whereagles, on 2011-August-12, 10:45, said:

I veemently dispute the claim that gambling 3NT often wrong-sides the contract. I've been playing that convention for the last 15 years or so and I've yet to see a case where wrong-siding was the difference between making and failing. I've seen the 7-card suit not breaking like 2 or 3 times (Jxxx on an opponent), but never wrong-siding.

Besides, those who criticise the gambling 3NT fail to see its main advantage: a simple bid that shows one's hand to 99% accuracy while remaining at a reasonably safe level. Wrong-siding is a tertiary worry and putting it as first priority is a technical mistake.

I used to play Alder style 3♠=G3N, 3N=4 level minor preempt, 4♣=♥ etc

This solves the wrongsiding issue.

[whereagles]

Indeed, but if you're gonna try and solve the wrong siding issue with 3♠, you're going to lose that bid as preemptive. Oh well, you can always solve it dumping the 2NT opener into a multi 2♦ and go transfer-preempt at all the 3 level (2NT = clubs, etc).

[Cyberyeti]

 whereagles, on 2011-August-12, 17:52, said:

Indeed, but if you're gonna try and solve the wrong siding issue with 3♠, you're going to lose that bid as preemptive. Oh well, you can always solve it dumping the 2NT opener into a multi 2♦ and go transfer-preempt at all the 3 level (2NT = clubs, etc).

I left it as that because I can't remember what we did with the other 3 bids.

Can't remember whether we played 3red as Xfer or 3♦ preempt in either major, 3♥ 5-5 majors.

[whereagles]

Idea:

2♣ = GF or weak 5-4 majors
2♦ = multi weak 6 major or 20-22 NT
2M = weak M/m 2-suiter
2NT = C or D pree
3♣ = weak 55 minor
3♦ = multi: 3M pree
3♥ = 55 M
3♠ = gambling
3NT+ = as above

/end rant

[Cyberyeti]

 whereagles, on 2011-August-13, 05:32, said:

Idea:

2♣ = GF or weak 5-4 majors
2♦ = multi weak 6 major or 20-22 NT
2M = weak M/m 2-suiter
2NT = C or D pree
3♣ = weak 55 minor
3♦ = multi: 3M pree
3♥ = 55 M
3♠ = gambling
3NT+ = as above

/end rant

If you have decent multi technology, you can work the big 4441s in there too which removes some awkward hands from other sequences.

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-13, 18:03, said:

If you have decent multi technology, you can work the big 4441s in there too which removes some awkward hands from other sequences.

And screws up the effectiveness of reponder's capabilities in putting more pressure on opponents.

Also, long time ago people thought the more meaning their multi has, more decent it is, they changed their mind pretty quick after opponents learnt that they are not overcall proof, in fact extremely vulnerable against it. I strongly suggest not to play strong jump shifts vs multis which has too many options including a lot of strong hand types.

[Cyberyeti]

 MrAce, on 2011-August-14, 01:03, said:

And screws up the effectiveness of reponder's capabilities in putting more pressure on opponents.

Also, long time ago people thought the more meaning their multi has, more decent it is, they changed their mind pretty quick after opponents learnt that they are not overcall proof, in fact extremely vulnerable against it. I strongly suggest not to play strong jump shifts vs multis which has too many options including a lot of strong hand types.

Hence the "if you have decent multi technology" bit. You need bids like 3N=5-9 ish 4-4 majors (ie a hand that would enquire whether you had a 4 card major and bid game but not slam opposite the strong balanced option). If partner has both majors and wants to put pressure on, you have a guaranteed 4-4 fit opposite a 4441 so you have no more problem than you do if you hold the strong balanced.

It also works better if you do this to play the destructive weak 2 (often 5) through the multi and the constructive straight weak 2, so you're less likely to want to bounce the multi weak 2 on 3 card support rather than play weak 2/lucas. It also makes it a lot more workable if you restrict the 4441s to at least 18+, I think we actually played 19 or 20 as the minimum.

The only complicated auction is 2♦-2♠-3♣ which is 2 way with a weak 2 in hearts or a 4414.

We didn't have a particular problem with overcalls.

[mike777]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-14, 01:18, said:

Hence the "if you have decent multi technology" bit. You need bids like 3N=5-9 ish 4-4 majors (ie a hand that would enquire whether you had a 4 card major and bid game but not slam opposite the strong balanced option). If partner has both majors and wants to put pressure on, you have a guaranteed 4-4 fit opposite a 4441 so you have no more problem than you do if you hold the strong balanced.

It also works better if you do this to play the destructive weak 2 (often 5) through the multi and the constructive straight weak 2, so you're less likely to want to bounce the multi weak 2 on 3 card support rather than play weak 2/lucas. It also makes it a lot more workable if you restrict the 4441s to at least 18+, I think we actually played 19 or 20 as the minimum.

The only complicated auction is 2♦-2♠-3♣ which is 2 way with a weak 2 in hearts or a 4414.

We didn't have a particular problem with overcalls.

My biggest complaint against full multi tech is you guys cannot fully explain it at the table...in fact you very often tell half truths.....

Of course it is pretty hard to defend against half truths rather than full disclosure.

--



When you play often against a convention which very often is never fully described by opener or responder; people get mad....often....

---


I doubt in roughly 30 or so years if multi is ever fully described when I have played against it by both opener and responder.


Half truths yes..often....

[Cyberyeti]

 mike777, on 2011-August-14, 03:00, said:

My biggest complaint against full multi tech is you guys cannot fully explain it at the table...in fact you very often tell half truths.....

Of course it is pretty hard to defend against half truths rather than full disclosure.

--



When you play often against a convention which very often is never fully described by opener or responder; people get mad....often....

---


I doubt in roughly 30 or so years if multi is ever fully described when I have played against it by both opener and responder.


Half truths yes..often....

This does not tally with my experience. I don't know where you play, but in the UK, it's usually well explained.

I don't play a multi any more with my main partner so only play it 5 or 6 times a year.

The description of 5-9 6 card major, 20-21 bal or 18+ 4441 is simple and off pat (if that's the multi I happen to be playing) and the description of the responses is similarly simple. I don't see what there is to misexplain.

Part of the reason a multi gets a bad name is you get things like 2♦-P-2♥(p/c)-P(after lots of questions)-P(actually holding spades trying to put the partner of the hesitator in a really awkward spot).

In the UK, multi is common enough that you should know how to defend it, and you are supposed to acquaint yourself with opps general system before play, so you should not have the "interrogation/pass" scenario.

[Yu18772]

 nige1, on 2011-August-11, 03:04, said:

Agreeing, I think:

• In principle, the gambling 3N opener is flawed, because when 3N is the right contract, the convention usually wrong-sides it.
• IMO, in first two seats, as here, a gambling 3N should be disciplined, so responder can make informed decisions. The normal conventional understanding precludes possession of two aces.

As I understood it - 3NT may have at most one queen outside?
I once had an idea to play 3♦ as solid ( I also play 2♦ as weak ♦), because of the wrong-side issue, and also to allow to look for 5+-3 major fit, but it never made it to the table:)

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-14, 01:18, said:

We didn't have a particular problem with overcalls.

Think about this way, EVEN very well defined, precision 1♥ opening, will have problems vs an overcall or preempt, and you are expecting us to believe by simply saying u did not have a particular problem with opponents getting into auction, when your opening bid already started at 2 level and has variety of hands starting from very weak to very strong hands, from balanced to very wild shapes.... Cmon now

It would be more convincing if you told me you will bring peace to middle east

Using multi as a storage place is a bad idea IMO.

[Cyberyeti]

 MrAce, on 2011-August-15, 08:36, said:

Think about this way, EVEN very well defined, precision 1♥ opening, will have problems vs an overcall or preempt, and you are expecting us to believe by simply saying u did not have a particular problem with opponents getting into auction, when your opening bid already started at 2 level and has variety of hands starting from very weak to very strong hands, from balanced to very wild shapes.... Cmon now

It would be more convincing if you told me you will bring peace to middle east

Using multi as a storage place is a bad idea IMO.

The strong 4441 is infrequent enough (if you make it really strong), and overcalled rarely so it really adds nothing much more to the complexity of the weak 2/strong 2N multi. Worst case you end up bidding 4441 and (434)2 the same way. If you opened at the 1 level with a nebulous club and next hand overcalls 2♠ are you any better off than him overcalling 2♠ over 2♦ ?

[MrAce]

 Cyberyeti, on 2011-August-15, 14:52, said:

If you opened at the 1 level with a nebulous club and next hand overcalls 2♠ are you any better off than him overcalling 2♠ over 2♦ ?

I strongly believe so. And i agree with you that 4441 or 4432 strong hands are infrequent, but that doesn't do any good to pdship, since there is this possibility it will slow down the capabilities of pd or effectiveness of our preempt which i believe should be the priority, over a 3m overcall or over a DBL.

If what u only have stored in multi is weak 2 bids and strong 4441 and 4432 hands, this is at least playable imo.

People store things like
a-weak 2
b- strong balanced with 5 card suit
c- strong 4441
d- solid major/minor which contrasts by trick number from namyats or similar openings
e- a hand that doesnt have space in their some relay auction therefore stored here
f-etc etc etc...

This i find unplayable.

[Zelandakh]

Most people I know play their multi as:-
1) weak 2 in either major
2) Acol 2 in either minor
3) either strong balanced or strong 3-suiter

Very few pairs add more than 5 hand types here. I think the Yeti is suggesting playing with 6 types (both of those in type 3) but not more. Even 6 is starting to push it imho.

A workaround for EBU rules (which disallow weak-only multi except in a very high level competitions) is:-
1) weak 2 in either major
2) Acol 2 with solid diamonds

This allows Responder to pass with any diamond figure in a weak hand since partner cannot have the strong variant. Playing on BBO there are no rules restricting the mini-multi which I personally think is much better than the traditional multi.

[Cyberyeti]

 Zelandakh, on 2011-August-16, 02:23, said:

Most people I know play their multi as:-
1) weak 2 in either major
2) Acol 2 in either minor
3) either strong balanced or strong 3-suiter

Very few pairs add more than 5 hand types here. I think the Yeti is suggesting playing with 6 types (both of those in type 3) but not more. Even 6 is starting to push it imho.

I'm suggesting weak 2, 2N type and strong 4441 any singleton, I don't include the strong 2 minor. If I include the minor I don't include the 4441, only 3 basic types. The one I really dislike is strong 2 any suit which I have seen.

What I was trying to say quite clumsily was that over intervention, provided you keep your 4441s up to strength, you don't lose a whole lot by occasionally having to take the same action with the 4441 as you do with the strong balanced, and it removes some awkward hands from the rest of your system. In the unopposed auction, it gets them off your chest very easily and accurately (occasionally at the cost of being one too high when partner has a bust, but at least you usually play in the right suit).

Quote

Think about this way, EVEN very well defined, precision 1♥ opening, will have problems vs an overcall or preempt, and you are expecting us to believe by simply saying u did not have a particular problem with opponents getting into auction, when your opening bid already started at 2 level and has variety of hands starting from very weak to very strong hands, from balanced to very wild shapes.... Cmon now

It would be more convincing if you told me you will bring peace to middle east

Yes, but a precision 1♥ gets overcalled much more often than a multi. If you have 11 points, the chance of the next hand having 11+ and a good suit is much higher than if you have 18 or 20. the reason I didn't have much of a problem is that we rarely got overcalled as people don't want to overcall or preempt with an 8 count if you have a weak 2, so need an opening hand and don't often have it.

Also a number of the multi defences involve passing some hands that could overcall and you tend to frighten them off when you show the strong type.