[jules101]

Thanks all for comments.

I'm interested in Frances's suggestion that we could use double as take out rather than penalties.

What are people's preferred methods here?


Yes Phil - you outed me - it's a hand from Monday at the Melville, and it only seems fare to share the full hand with all given you have seen it.

I suspect most East's aren't making a take out double (would you have?), so I doubt our auction will have been replicated at many tables.

---

[aguahombre]

And did North really have 2D come back around for a decision? I wonder what E/W knew; but that is a whole different matter.

Lots of pressure on South, if 2D is doubled, considering he must be worried about the expectations of his redouble the round before.

[ArtK78]

Given that South's redouble was on a 5-5 hand with no controls, I can't see him sitting for 2♦x, although it seems to be the winning decision.

From the posts above, I gather that this hand was played in a pair tournament, which makes the decision to defend 2♦x very tough. At IMPs, I would not be as worried, as making 2♦x is not game, and overtricks are not likely.

[jallerton]

ArtK78, on 2011-December-22, 09:35, said:

Given that South's redouble was on a 5-5 hand with no controls, I can't see him sitting for 2♦x, although it seems to be the winning decision.

From the posts above, I gather that this hand was played in a pair tournament, which makes the decision to defend 2♦x very tough. At IMPs, I would not be as worried, as making 2♦x is not game, and overtricks are not likely.

There's not much point in redoubling unless you are intending to respect a penalty double of 2♦ from partner. Given your hand, it is far more likely that the opponents will choose your doubleton that one of your 5-card suits. Even when they do choose one of your 5-card suits, "stupid" partner will often rebid spades or introduce his diamond suit before you have a chance to double.

By the way, I think that it is fairly clear to double 2♦ for penalties on Opener's hand. Those top cards scream "defend", the singleton heart means that any high cards partner has in the suit will be better for defending than declaring, and the auction and lack of spade pips suggest that there could be several spade losers playing in 3NT or 4♠.

[gwnn]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-20, 10:21, said:

Yes, that is the most prevalent meaning of a pass of the redouble. Yet, there are some old fashioned folks left over from an era where takeout doubles resembled takeout shape; and some of that small group believe that takeout doubles are meant to be taken out, and if advancer doesn't do that he/she doesn't want to. So, on this hand if the two opponents are on different wavelengths, we might rack up 1SXX making a lot (or a huge penalty against their 2-level contract).

Translation: yes, that is the most prevalent meaning of a pass of the redouble. However, I think that if your double promises short spades and at least two 4-card suits, it is better to play this pass as penalty.

There, is it really that hard to express yourself without resorting to passive-aggressive mockery of modern trends? Could you try a little harder? Thanks.

[aguahombre]

gwnn, on 2011-December-22, 11:55, said:

There, is it really that hard to express yourself without resorting to passive-aggressive mockery of modern trends? Could you try a little harder? Thanks.

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 12:14, said:

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

How old fashioned are you? I started playing bridge in 1972, and the pass over the redouble meant "nothing to say" then as it still does now.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2011-December-22, 12:35, said:

How old fashioned are you? I started playing bridge in 1972, and the pass over the redouble meant "nothing to say" then as it still does now.

Did the West hand qualify as "nothing to say", back then ---with 4 cards in the other major, a club stiff and a couple working red honors?

Back in 72, my views on taking out takeout doubles were becoming old-fashioned, but still in favor by a significant and prominent portion of the Bridge playing community ---not a majority.

I was old fashioned before I was old.

[gwnn]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 12:14, said:

O.K. Is it all right if I continue to mock my own old fashioned and minority views? I consider myself an equal opportunity mocker.

No . Perhaps this makes me the mockery police, but I think it would be more productive if everyone tried to simply state their views in a matter-of-fact way, without calling themselves Brontosauri or others young and restless.

Anyway, the west hand is an easy 2♥ bid if pass says 'nothing to say' or scramble, and I don't know what it is if pass is for penalties, but I think it is still a 2♥ bid.

[nige1]

IMO a modified Sharples approach works fine:
After (1♠) X (XX) ??

• Pass = Mild penalty suggestion with at least five of opponents' suit e.g. ♠QJxxx ♥ xx ♦ xxx ♣ xxx.
• 1N = Two places to play (alternatively: somebody's lying).
• 2♠ = Weak shapely ♥ & another.
• 2N = Weak shapely with minors.
• Other bids = natural.

After 1♠ (X) XX (P)
??

• 1N = Balanced grotty hand that you probably should not have opened e.g. ♠ QJxxx ♥ KQx ♦ QJx ♣ xx
• 2♠ = Poor hand with poor six card suit e.g. ♠ KTxxxx ♥ x ♦ Kxx ♣ QJx
• 2N = Poor hand with good suit; bits and pieces outside e.g. ♠ KQJ9xx ♥ QTx ♦ QJx ♣ x
• 3♠ = Poor hand with near solid suit e.g. ♠ AKQTxx ♥xx ♦ Qxx ♣ xx
• 2♣ = (New suit) Poor hand with a second suit e.g ♠ QJxxx ♥ x ♦ KJx ♣ KJxx
• 3♣ = (jump shift) Poor hand with good suits and more shape.♠ KQJxxx ♥ x ♦ x ♣ KJTxx
• Pass = Any sound opener. Creates a forcing pass. Neither partner can pass out an undoubled bid by opponents. With shape, you pass and pull.

On the actual hand, IMO, you should pass 1♠XX and double 2♦ for penalties.

I would be grateful to learn of more modern treatments -- and their rationale.

[aguahombre]

gwnn, on 2011-December-22, 12:46, said:

Anyway, the west hand is an easy 2♥ bid if pass says 'nothing to say' or scramble, and I don't know what it is if pass is for penalties, but I think it is still a 2♥ bid.

Yes, on this we definitely agree. And the observation that opposite the given East, 2HX would have been decidedly worse than 2DX brought out the "whole different matter" comment I made earlier.

If I eliminated the self mockery about being old-fashioned, I would be left with explaining why we have found the "nothing to say" pass less useful over the years.

1--taking out the redouble has resulted in very few penalties which we couldn't live with. The opponents seem to not have as much time to get into cooperative doubling mode.
2--taking out 1SXX erases opener's ability to show weak vs normal two-suiters.
3--we noticed, for instance, that 1mXX making two on a 6-1 trump break (white) is equal to 3nt+1 and better than minus 500 or 800.
4--I forget what #4 is, because now I am both old-fashioned and old.

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on 2011-December-22, 12:43, said:

Did the West hand qualify as "nothing to say", back then ---with 4 cards in the other major, a club stiff and a couple working red honors?

Back in 72, my views on taking out takeout doubles were becoming old-fashioned, but still in favor by a significant and prominent portion of the Bridge playing community ---not a majority.

I was old fashioned before I was old.

I was not commenting on West's actual hand. I was just stating what the pass should mean in a vacuum.

I would bid 2♥ on the West hand.

As for East's double, all I can say is "Wow!"

[whereagles]

If pard couldn't dbl 2D, then he probably has a doubleton spade. Say 2434 or 2524. With a singleton spade pard might have thought of dbling 2D.

I'm going with 3S now.

EDIT: saw the hand and... LOL. Anyway, pard will bid 3NT over 3S and all is well.

[han]

I agree that opener has a clear pass followed by a double. The extra strength, the quick tricks, the diamond honors and partner with at most 2 spades all call for defending. The play looks very interesting.

I think playing the pass as "I'm not sure" or "let's search for our best fit together" is much better than using pass for penalties at the 1-level. After the pass, doubler can bid a 5-card suit directly, or bid 1NT with more than one place to play. I wouldn't have passed 1SXX with the west hand, but when 2D comes back I would certainly pass and not correct to hearts.

Perhaps a direct 2H would have made it tougher for NS, should north sit for a penalty double of 2H?

[JLOGIC]

han, on 2011-December-30, 06:26, said:

Perhaps a direct 2H would have made it tougher for NS, should north sit for a penalty double of 2H?

Umm, yes, he has AK AJ A and a trump. If partner wants to double them in 2H I have pretty good defense!

Similarly, I agree with jallerton that this is the easiest double ever of 2D. We have great defense, all the points, and it is w/w. I would expect +800 into a white game quite often, and sometimes +300 or whatever when we can't make game (with bad breaks). I would never be thinking that we might only get +100 against 2D when we have a game, it's nuts.