[arnoldson2]

I don't have the knowledge required to judge a good system, but my son directed me here to find the people who do.

Where I play you can potentially play almost anything for passes and 1m can show anything, e.g. a fert.

The restrictions are that pass must not promise values, so it could legally be 2-way. Basically pass is legal if it includes any/some 0 HCP hands The potentially fertish 1m is only legal in a strong (13 or higher+, nothing to stop this being capped, e.g 14-16) 1other minor system. All opening bids must be Ro18+ in 1/2 and 8+ in 3/4, with the exception of the options you get by having a 13+ minor, i.e. the fertish option. Impact: you can't play pass - 1c as a negative for example unless 1D is still showing 13+

WRT the pass I suppose you could legally play it as something like 0 with 9 spades or 16+ and just treat it as 16+ in terms of responses and assume you'll get a bottom whenever you get dealt 0 and 9 spades and noone's opened in front of you - a rare occurrence i suspect, even allowing for the times you're dealer lol. This feels like dirty Secretary Birding though. I feel the weaker range for the pass should not be unreasonably infrequent.

Given the above conditions, is a worthwhile system possible?

Legal example:

1/2 in hand:
pass is 0-8 promising a major or exactly 4M, unbal 9-13 or 6m, no major, 9-13 or bal 12-14
1D: 0-8 no major
1C: any 14+ unbal, 15+ bal
1H/S: 9-13 5cM
1NT: 9-11
2x: all 2 level devoted to weak stuff

[glen]

 arnoldson2, on 2012-February-17, 20:40, said:

... Given the above conditions, is a worthwhile system possible?

Yes, make the weaker range of pass a particular hand type, and it depends on what "promise values" means - does promising 1 point promises values?

[arnoldson2]

Yes so you couldn't play an opening pass as a moderately weak hand, for example 7-10, because that would be values. Basically pass is legal if it includes any/some 0 HCP hands. Bur out of fairness, I feel this part of the range should have reasonable frequency.

[glen]

Play something such as 0-8 both majors 4-4+ or 16+

[straube]

I don't understand the attraction of these 2-way bids. I thought the attractiveness of forcing pass was to gain a step for relay auctions. If regulations forbid pass from showing values, why bother with a forcing pass (or a pass that may show 0 to 14 points)? What are you gaining?

[Flameous]

These restrictions mainly make it seem like you could play something along Magic Diamond's older brother. (Can't remember the name right now)

Pass = 0-8(*) or 17+
1♣ = 13-16 unbal or 15-17 bal
1♦ = 0-8(*)
1♥/♠ = 8-12, 4+, canape
1NT = 12-14
2♣/♦ = 8-12, 5+m, no 4M

You have two weak bids there and 9-11 bal isn't handled yet, but I think there could be something tweaked from this. Of course it has all the problems MD has, ie: two opening vulnerable to pre-empts, 2m openings and the major openings... well they are double edged sword.
I think it's possible to do something better, I just immediately though of MD with those constraints. My second though now is something resembling semiforcing pass system. (Pass as 0-7 or 12-15 bal)


straube, if we split ranges something along 0-7, 8-10, 11-14, 15-17, 18+, natural systems only operate with passing and pre-empting on the first two steps. Having pass be a strength promising bid (or 2-way) instead of denying it allows you to open more weaker hand types. Usually this is regarded as an advantage.

[dake50]

Switch 1D: 0-7 no major to one 4xM or 4xM with 3-4xoM
with Pass: 0-11 no major.
I think Pass: 18-20 bal is a good "big" hand into pass.
Enough to come as high as the 3-level when that occurs.
Maybe 18-20 needs further constraint, eg. both M-stops.
Pass including some weak long spades cases appeals as the
spades won't be shut out below 3-level. Get hearts in
quickly, get minors in quickly. Spades can amble into
any auction when the hand is strong.

[straube]

 Flameous, on 2012-February-18, 02:03, said:

These restrictions mainly make it seem like you could play something along Magic Diamond's older brother. (Can't remember the name right now)

Pass = 0-8(*) or 17+
1♣ = 13-16 unbal or 15-17 bal
1♦ = 0-8(*)
1♥/♠ = 8-12, 4+, canape
1NT = 12-14
2♣/♦ = 8-12, 5+m, no 4M

You have two weak bids there and 9-11 bal isn't handled yet, but I think there could be something tweaked from this. Of course it has all the problems MD has, ie: two opening vulnerable to pre-empts, 2m openings and the major openings... well they are double edged sword.
I think it's possible to do something better, I just immediately though of MD with those constraints. My second though now is something resembling semiforcing pass system. (Pass as 0-7 or 12-15 bal)


straube, if we split ranges something along 0-7, 8-10, 11-14, 15-17, 18+, natural systems only operate with passing and pre-empting on the first two steps. Having pass be a strength promising bid (or 2-way) instead of denying it allows you to open more weaker hand types. Usually this is regarded as an advantage.

Thanks. Splitting pass between 0-8 and 17+ makes more sense to me than pass as 0-14.

So would you play transfers after this club opening? Seems very hard to establish a GF at the outset (1D negative) so maybe wait a round or two.

Also, how do you continue after P P ?

[bluecalm]

Strange stuff. If I were to design system restrictions I would be quicker to ban 2way bids than very simple stuff like PASS 16+any or w/e.

[mgoetze]

 bluecalm, on 2012-February-18, 13:14, said:

Strange stuff. If I were to design system restrictions I would be quicker to ban 2way bids than very simple stuff like PASS 16+any or w/e.

Well, arnoldson doesn't say where he is from, but I consider it not unlikely that he simply misinterpreted the relevant regulations.

[Flameous]

http://www.oocities..../magicpass.html

There's a link for Magic Pass, seems to be pretty close to what I figured. I think there are better approaches though. I'd look for modern Swedish two-way pass systems. It seems you don't actually need other minor to be "strong" opening, you only need it if you want fert but I doubt it's actually needed with good structure. I'd rather aim for freeing whole 2-lvl for pre-empts to handle most weak unbal hands.

http://www.bridgeguy...forcingpass.pdf

There seems to be some outlines for possible systems.

I have never tinkered with 2-way pass systems so can't really tell how it all works out. I have sketched some semiforcing pass systems but they seemed a bit too much hassle.
In Finland I'm allowed to play anything if playing 6+ boards against the same opps, so once I outgrow my junior years, I'm probably just going with straight forward strong pass.

[steve2005]

Dont want to spoil all your fun but..
from GCC
Disallowed
....
4. Forcing pass systems.
...
6. Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8 HCP. (Not applicable to a psych.)


so i presume your pass would be forcing as it contains your strong hands
so would be disallowed

[mikestar13]

 steve2005, on 2012-February-18, 14:48, said:

Dont want to spoil all your fun but..
from GCC
Disallowed
....
4. Forcing pass systems.
...
6. Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show fewer than 8 HCP. (Not applicable to a psych.)


so i presume your pass would be forcing as it contains your strong hands
so would be disallowed

Doubt if OP is from ACBL, nobody who has to live under the GCC would ask this, it's so obviously disallowed .

[FrancesHinden]

 mgoetze, on 2012-February-18, 13:39, said:

Well, arnoldson doesn't say where he is from, but I consider it not unlikely that he simply misinterpreted the relevant regulations.

They read quite a lot like the EBU regulations the pass and for the strength of opening bids. The one about an opening pass is not desperately well written, and I wouldn't take it for granted that a 'two-way' pass is going to be legal in future.

The WBF regulations for 1minor openings could be interpreted as stated above (which are included in the EBU L5 definition) but I think they have been misinterpreted. The WBF regulations are also badly written and don't mean that you can play a 'fert' or 'negative' 1m 'response' to a 2-way pass. The 'exception' for 1 of a minor in a strong system only applies to item 5 on the list of HUM systems, not to all of them.

[whereagles]

Here's my own pet FP:


In 1st/2nd seat

pass: 0-8 or 15+
1x: natural 9-14
1NT: 9-11 or 12-14 (according to vuln)
2x: weak 2 disciplined


In 3rd/4th seat

1C: 0-8 or 15+
1D: no 5 major 9-14
1M: 5 card 9-14
1NT: junk pree in any suit
2x: weak 2 disciplined


For follow-ups pls deposit $50 on my bank account. Thx

[arnoldson2]

 FrancesHinden, on 2012-February-20, 13:08, said:

They read quite a lot like the EBU regulations the pass and for the strength of opening bids. The one about an opening pass is not desperately well written, and I wouldn't take it for granted that a 'two-way' pass is going to be legal in future.

The WBF regulations for 1minor openings could be interpreted as stated above (which are included in the EBU L5 definition) but I think they have been misinterpreted. The WBF regulations are also badly written and don't mean that you can play a 'fert' or 'negative' 1m 'response' to a 2-way pass. The 'exception' for 1 of a minor in a strong system only applies to item 5 on the list of HUM systems, not to all of them.

Yes we stole the English regulations, but how we interpret them here often varies. I checked that we interpret them as I wrote, irrespective of what the English federation intended.

[relknes]

Something like this might be fun:

Pass: 0-7 or 17+
1x: 8-16, 4+
1N: 11-13 balanced
2x: 8-10 unbalanced, 5+

For followups to the 1x bids, you could use a fairly simple system simmilar to acol or standard american.
After an opening pass

1C: 17+ or 11-13 balanced
1D: 0-7 or 8-10 balanced
1M: 8-16, 4+ unbalanced
1N: 14-16 balanced
2m: 8-16, 5+ unbalanced
(except for the 1D response, these are all forcing to game oposite a strong pass and to play oposite a weak pass)

[rbforster]

Another off the wall suggestion is a balanced pass system, something like pass = 0-15 balanced, with a strong club and fert like natural 2 level openers.

[akhare]

 rbforster, on 2012-February-21, 05:09, said:

Another off the wall suggestion is a balanced pass system, something like pass = 0-15 balanced, with a strong club and fert like natural 2 level openers.

Along those lines, why not not play P as any 0-8 that can't open OR 14-16 bal with say a 10-13 NT?

This eliminate the need for a fert and other openings can be customized to taste (say 1C=17+ bal / 15+ otherwise)...

[straube]

 akhare, on 2012-February-21, 05:29, said:

Along those lines, why not not play P as any 0-8 that can't open OR 14-16 bal with say a 10-13 NT?

This eliminate the need for a fert and other openings can be customized to taste (say 1C=17+ bal / 15+ otherwise)...

Seems like a good idea.