[jillybean]

What is your plan?

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[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2012-May-21, 00:55, said:

What is your plan?

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First, show me the 23 point hand.

[nigel_k]

Open 1♦. If partner responds in a major, splinter and make another move if he signs off. Raise 1NT to 3NT. If he responds 2♣, the next action depends on system.

[32519]

Jilly

Can you post the full hand please? These big 4441's have been often discussed in the forums. I would like to see how previous comments would have fared with this hand.

Thank you.

[jillybean]

If you open 1♦, that is where you will play.
This hand was opened 2♣. Partner responds 2♦ on Jxx,xxx,Kxx,xxxx, raised 2N to 3N and of course the opponents take
the first 5 tricks in ♣'s.

C'est la vie. I like the 1♦ opening.

[ahydra]

Open 2C, playing your newly-invented 2C/2D system where 2C-2D-2S shows a big 4441

Outside of that... 2NT? Yes it doesn't work here, but neither does 2C, and most of the time it gets you where the field will be.

1D is possible but you'd hate it if partner had xxxx Qxx 10xx xxx.

ahydra

[32519]

jillybean, on 2012-May-21, 08:55, said:

If you open 1♦, that is where you will play.
This hand was opened 2♣. Partner responds 2♦ on Jxx,xxx,Kxx,xxxx, raised 2N to 3N and of course the opponents take
the first 5 tricks in ♣'s.

C'est la vie. I like the 1♦ opening.

We’ve had plenty of threads on these 4441’s which turned belly up. There have been differing opinions on how to bid them. Many favour treating the hand as balanced, and depending on the actual HCP count, either opened 2NT (20-21 HCP) or 2♣ followed by 2NT (22+ HCP).

At least the 1♦ (all pass) never went down lol!

Here are some other threads covering the same issue:
4441 Rock
4X1 25-Count
Bid Hand 4144
Strong 4441 Hand
The Hated 4441 Again
2C versus 2C Debate

Natural systems seem to cope the worst with the 4441 hand pattern. I would love to hear from naturalists who have found a good solution steering away from these 2NT/3NT contracts which inevitably go down when the opponents runs the first 5 tricks in the suit containing your singleton.

[aguahombre]

The given hand is O.K. for 1D, just barely, IMO in a natural style. 4X1 hands, in addition to being awkward, tend to play badly as well. So, tucking in a bit seems like a good idea.

However, If the hand were as advertised in the title, then pet methods of handling it would be in order.

[mike777]

ya easy 1d I dont really have a rebid if I start with 2c.

[jillybean]

I actually like 1♦ in 1st, 2nd seat, 2N in 3rd, 4th.

[jjbrr]

32519, on 2012-May-21, 09:50, said:

We’ve had plenty of threads on these 4441’s which turned belly up. There have been differing opinions on how to bid them. Many favour treating the hand as balanced, and depending on the actual HCP count, either opened 2NT (20-21 HCP) or 2♣ followed by 2NT (22+ HCP).

At least the 1♦ (all pass) never went down lol!

Here are some other threads covering the same issue:
4441 Rock
4X1 25-Count
Bid Hand 4144
Strong 4441 Hand
The Hated 4441 Again
2C versus 2C Debate

Natural systems seem to cope the worst with the 4441 hand pattern. I would love to hear from naturalists who have found a good solution steering away from these 2NT/3NT contracts which inevitably go down when the opponents runs the first 5 tricks in the suit containing your singleton.

I'm not going to read any of those threads, but are any of them about the auction going 2NT-3NT and declarer making an overtrick?

[inquiry]

ahydra, on 2012-May-21, 09:39, said:

Open 2C, playing your newly-invented 2C/2D system where 2C-2D-2S shows a big 4441

Outside of that... 2NT? Yes it doesn't work here, but neither does 2C, and most of the time it gets you where the field will be.

1D is possible but you'd hate it if partner had xxxx Qxx 10xx xxx.

ahydra

You don't have to invite a new method, Chris Ryall has a nice one that I like... his web page description is ryall's page and I have described the method on my inquiry2over1 webpage and here on this forum (for instance see 4441 and 5440 bid hands)

i would be willing to show how this method would deal different hand populations. But the treatment is fairly routine, so rather than show a few example hands, I will outline how the auctions might go opposite some hands partner could hold. They all start with this hand opening 2♣. The responses are 2♦ - which shows at least one potential trick for a major contract, 2♥ which denies a trick for hearts, 2♠ promises one heart trick, but no trick for spades... we will ignore higher responses as those are all one suited.

So the auctions all will start 2♣-2suit-2NT (THREE SUITER). If responder bid 2♥ or 2♠, then 3♣ is pass/correct (other bids also scramble). Over more normal 2♦ response, then 3♣ is asking bid. The steps after the 3♣ that is relay show shape and losers. This hand is a 3NT bid, showing short clubs and 4-5 losers. iF THE 2♦ BIDDER bids something other than 3♣, are scambles with 3♦ and 3♥ showing one trick and looking for a fit somewhere.

After 2♣=2♦=2NT, the auctions can continue.

3♣ - opener will rebid 3NT showing 4-5 losers, short club
3♦ - scramble showing only one cover card, opener will rebid 4♣ artificial showing major two suit, 4 losers
3♥ - scramble showing only one cover card, opener will raise to 4♥ with only 4 losers

over 3♣, responder can set the contract, or bid 4♣ to find out the nature of the losers, opener will rebid 4♠ showing 4-4-4-1 and 4 losers. responder can signoff over this, or bid 5♣ to ask for controls (A=2, K=1). Steps start at four due to the 4-5 losers shown, so responder will bid 6♣. Responder will know that opener has a queen as well as the controls, as he has only four losers...so something like AKxx AKxx Axxx x plus a long suit queen. You can move the aces around.

Now work this into the hand that jilly eventually shows opposite.

[MrAce]

I see.... it is that time of the year again.

This is like watching "Shark Week" on TV

[Zelandakh]

I play a modified form of Ryall's method in a strong club context, although I earlier played a simpler form in a Reverse Benji structure. After a strong 1♣ and 1♦ negative, Opener's 1♠ rebid shows either an unbalanced game force or a strong (18+) 3-suiter. Responder's rebid is now usually point-showing, 1NT for a semi-positive, 2♣ for a double negative and 2♦ for the hands in-between. Higher bids are possible with a good suit. After a 1NT rebid, 2♣ now shows the 3-suited hand (with 2♦ a relay); similarly for 2♦ over a 2♣ rebid except no relay is possible. After a 2♦ rebid the 2NT response shows the 3-suiter and we are back at the same place as Ryall's scheme but with a little more known about Responder.

I also adjusted the relay responses after 2NT - 3♣. For me 3♦ shows short hearts, 3♥ shows short spades, 3♠ is short clubs and min, 3NT short diamonds and min, 4♣ short diamonds and extras, and 4♦ and higher short clubs and extras. I find this simpler than Ryall's "trick" method. The later auction is almost the same, the main difference being that 4m can be used as a relay when it is cheaper rather than only the cheapest bid of NT and the short suit. I also prefer to use hcp ranges rather than LTC. Naturally a similar scheme is employed after 1♣ - 1♦; 1♠ - 1NT; 2♣ - 2♦ too.

Overall the method is wonderful when it comes up but, if I am honest, lots of (memory) work for a very small selection of hands. Nonetheless, having them tucked away in one place means no fudging in other auctions which is nice. Having played the method for a (very) long time the memory overhead is practically nil now for me too. I consider it a very low priority thing though. Most of the time you do fine with one of the alternatives: open 1m; open 2♣ and show a balanced hand; open 2♣ and rebid 2♥; or open 2♣ and rebid 3m. Without my (or Ben/Ryall's) gadget I would probably choose option 3 with this hand although it is very close between that and 1♦.

[aguahombre]

For hands which really have 23-25 and are 4X1, certain pairs who currently play Multi with no strong variants could fairly easily add this one. All they would lose would be the ability to pass 2D.

"Suit Below the stiff" might be the most efficient way to do this.

2D-2H (P/C)
2N=stiff club
3C=stiff diamond
3D=stiff heart
3H=stiff spade.

2D-2S (P/C)
similar, but obviously 3H must be reserved for the spade/heart "correction".

2D-2N* Presumably 2NT is some strong convention in response to Multi assuming pard has a w-2.
Opener would start his descriptions with 3NT if holding the big 4X1.

2D-any higher P/C....Opener bypasses, starting with NT to show stiff club, etc.

After a 'suit below' break by opener, responder can put on the brakes via relay through the stiff for a subsequent sign-off; or he can set trump for slam by bidding a suit shown by opener.

[ahydra]

inquiry, on 2012-May-21, 17:49, said:

You don't have to [invent] a new method...

No, you don't - but I'm playing (and referring to above) a system me and my partner developed together which includes 4441s by design. Looking at it again, I can see how my post got misunderstood

There are no doubt "hundreds" of methods for handling each type of hand. The important thing here is how to add it / handle it within the system you're currently playing. So my comment was really getting at the fact that I was glad I've recently switched to a system which can handle big 4441s.

Without gadgets, generally I've treated them as balanced. Perhaps the best is some mixture of the two given how often you end up playing 3NT. Treat as balanced if you have ace (ace or king?) in the singleton suit, use the 4441 gadget if you don't.

ahydra

[neilkaz]

7+8+7=22 but I still slightly prefer 2♣ followed by 2NT with this monster. I fear 1♦may get passed out when I have game or that I can never convince PD how good my hand is and miss slam. I'll take the chance to be set via ♣ in NT. Sometimes LHO leads another suit, sometimes it blocks or a defender blunders and doesn't realize 5 tricks cash.

The above assumes no gadget obv.

[jillybean]

7+8+7+1 for the stiff.

[aguahombre]

Note HCP refers to high card points. And with 4X1, we would do better to subtract rather than add for distribution (not knowing if we have a fit), yet still not calling our evaluation "high card points".

[jillybean]

aguahombre, on 2012-May-23, 22:15, said:

Note HCP refers to high card points. And with 4X1, we would do better to subtract rather than add for distribution (not knowing if we have a fit), yet still not calling our evaluation "high card points".

I think you missed the