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Strong Artificial 2 Club Openings How would you find the Club slam?

#1 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 00:11

This hand was dealt at IMPs. Dealer = North with N/S vulnerable.
North opened the bidding with a strong artificial 2.



How would you find the cold slam using every one the more popular methods for responding to a strong artificial 2 opening bid listed below? If you use something else, e.g. Kokish, then include it so that we can see how you would find the slam.

1. Albarran
2. Cheaper Minor as a Second Negative
3. Control Showing Responses
4. Natural Responses
5. Oswald Jacoby Step Responses
6. Two Diamonds as “Waiting”, Two Hearts as “Negative”

I am trying to convince myself which of these methods is better to use.

Thanking you all in advance.
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#2 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 01:59

View Post32519, on 2012-May-26, 00:11, said:

How would you find the cold slam using every one the more popular methods for responding to a strong artificial 2 opening bid listed below?


You're joking, aren't you?
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#3 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 02:23

We play negative 2 + kokish so:

2-2
2-2
3-4(better than 5)
4N(exclusion , 4 would be kickback)-5(1)
5N(anything else useful)-6(no)

I've wondered for a while if there should be a specialised control ask for situations where you can't have more than say an ace and a queen or 2 kings to detail exactly what honours are held with one bid. This hand doesn't need it, but I can see circumstances where it would be useful to know eg

Step 1 No A or K (not needed if you have a double neg)
Step 2 K (can relay for Qs)
Step 3 A (can relay for Qs)
Step 4 2K
Step 5 A + K (used for 2 Ks one of which is in trumps, or A + Q trump)
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#4 User is offline   Yu18772 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 03:26

Natural:
2-2
2-3
4*-4
4NT-5
6
North can count on cross ruff, so may be 7?

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#5 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 03:29

View Postsfi, on 2012-May-26, 01:59, said:

You're joking, aren't you?


No, I am not joking. This hand occurred during an online team game some time ago. Neither table appeared to have proper agreements regarding the continuation bidding to an artificial strong 2.

At our table the bidding went: 2-2 (waiting)-2-3.
The 3 bid was understood to be the “second negative” and 0-4 HCP (see cheaper minor as the second negative above). After 3, North decided to blast into 4 which went down when the trumps broke 5-2 and the opponents kept tapping declarer in .

At the other table a complete disaster unfolded when the bidding went: 2-2 (waiting)-2-4.
The 4 bidder was trying to show a real suit (versus 3 as the second negative). Needless to say, opener interpreted 4 as a splinter in support of and decided to blast straight into 6 which was doubled. Even with our own poor continuation agreements, our side picked up a sizeable gain on the hand.

I posted the hand to find out what others do. Not everyone plays 2 as waiting.
2

#6 User is offline   gwnn 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 04:09

And why is 22 such a magic number anyhow?
... and I can prove it with my usual, flawless logic.
      George Carlin
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#7 User is offline   sfi 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 05:15

View Post32519, on 2012-May-26, 03:29, said:

I posted the hand to find out what others do. Not everyone plays 2 as waiting.


Which is not what you asked. You asked for someone to tell you how to bid the hand in 6(!) different structures - all because neither table knew what their agreements were. Any sensible set of agreements should get you to the club slam on these hands, which should give you an idea about where the problem was in your match.
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#8 User is offline   ggwhiz 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 13:30

2 - 2
2 - 3

In my methods, 2 is a gf (2 is a bust) and after that 3 is natural.

After that, North might even decide to bid 5nt as a graded gsf, find 1 of the top 3 and bid the grand.

I can't relate to or imagine any methods that don't lead to at least 6. The problem appears to be 4 different methods played by each of the 4 players.
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#9 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 14:13

View Post32519, on 2012-May-26, 00:11, said:

... I am trying to convince myself which of these methods is better to use ...

Which of these methods is better to use for this particular hand, or you plan to pick a method based on how it does for one particular hand, or this is the first of hundreds of hands you will give us to bid, following the American 2C Idol approach to eliminating contestants?
'I hit my peak at seven' Taylor Swift
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#10 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-May-26, 14:27

In Romex (the same methods could be used in a straight 2/1 system):

2-2...0 or 1 control
2-2NT...natural, 5+ cards;what else? 3 would be second negative.
3-4...both natural
4-4...RCKB for clubs. Partner can't have the A; one key card (which must be the K
6...not sure how to get to 7.

I don't know Jacoby Step Responses or Albarran (unless one of them is steps in HCP, 0-3, 4-6, and so on).

With 2 "double negative":

2-2...GF
2-3...natural
4-4...splinter, club support; first or second round heart control (which must be shortage).
4-5...spade control; nothing further to say
6... I don't think North can bid 7 here; maybe I'm wrong.
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#11 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 00:07

View Postglen, on 2012-May-26, 14:13, said:

Which of these methods is better to use for this particular hand, or you plan to pick a method based on how it does for one particular hand, or this is the first of hundreds of hands you will give us to bid, following the American 2C Idol approach to eliminating contestants?


I have already acknowledged the fact that my partner and I were guilty of not having proper continuation agreements following a 2 opening bid. I am hoping to find out how other methods would have found the slam. I have played with many random pickup partners on BBO who had either, a) Albarran, b) Control Showing Responses, or c) Jacoby Step Responses on their CCs. So can you or anyone else provide an auction using these methods illustrating how the slam could have been found?

Thus far we have
1. Kokish from Cyberyeti
2. Natural from Yu18722
3. 2 as GF, 2 as negative from ggwhiz and blackshoe
4. Romex from blackshoe
2

#12 User is offline   32519 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 00:15

View Postggwhiz, on 2012-May-26, 13:30, said:

2 - 2
2 - 3
In my methods, 2 is a gf (2 is a bust) and after that 3 is natural.
After that, North might even decide to bid 5nt as a graded gsf, find 1 of the top 3 and bid the grand.
I can't relate to or imagine any methods that don't lead to at least 6.
The problem appears to be 4 different methods played by each of the 4 players.


View Postblackshoe, on 2012-May-26, 14:27, said:

With 2 "double negative":
2-2...GF
2-3...natural
4-4...splinter, club support; first or second round heart control (which must be shortage).
4-5...spade control; nothing further to say
6... I don't think North can bid 7 here; maybe I'm wrong.


Using 2 as negative after 2 is pretty much what partner and I are now playing. It works well here because South has 5 HCP. Removing the J from the South hand and replacing it with a spot card, reduces the hand to 4 HCP. How would you bid the hand now? The J wasn't needed anyway.
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#13 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 08:10

View Post32519, on 2012-May-27, 00:07, said:

4. Romex from blackshoe

I did mention that is how Romex would bid it, but from your original list, it's control showing responses combined with cheaper minor second negative.

View Post32519, on 2012-May-27, 00:15, said:

Using 2 as negative after 2 is pretty much what partner and I are now playing. It works well here because South has 5 HCP. Removing the J from the South hand and replacing it with a spot card, reduces the hand to 4 HCP. How would you bid the hand now? The J wasn't needed anyway.

Loss of the J wouldn't change the bidding for me.
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#14 User is offline   glen 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 09:33

With the benefit of 20-20, here's my 2 system in "action":

2 (strong, but can be 18-19 balanced) - 2 (denies a five card major in a weak hand); -
2 (Kokish/Birthright like, 22+ balanced or GF s) - 2 (denies a five card major, and not 7+ with a minor); -
3 (GF, Stayman, balanced or s with secondary s) - 3 (no four card major); -
3 (5+s) - 3 (3s, not a clear 3NT bid); -
4 (natural, implies 4-5-1-3 or 4-5-0-4) - 5 (natural); -
6
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#15 User is offline   aguahombre 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 10:08

Since this is not a hand we would consider opening 2C on for more than a millisecond, we would end in 1H or a club slam --depending on whether opener got a second chance to act.

Either result would have picked up IMPS. :rolleyes:
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#16 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 10:14

Not as many as bidding 6. B-)
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#17 User is offline   DrMunk 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 13:15

View Postgwnn, on 2012-May-26, 04:09, said:

And why is 22 such a magic number anyhow?



:)
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#18 User is offline   PrecisionL 

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Posted 2012-May-27, 13:48

View Post32519, on 2012-May-26, 00:11, said:

This hand was dealt at IMPs. Dealer = North with N/S vulnerable.
North opened the bidding with a strong artificial 2.



How would you find the cold slam using every one the more popular methods for responding to a strong artificial 2 opening bid listed below? If you use something else, e.g. Kokish, then include it so that we can see how you would find the slam.

1. Albarran
2. Cheaper Minor as a Second Negative
3. Control Showing Responses
4. Natural Responses
5. Oswald Jacoby Step Responses
6. Two Diamonds as “Waiting”, Two Hearts as “Negative”

I am trying to convince myself which of these methods is better to use.

Thanking you all in advance.


None!

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#19 User is offline   Statto 

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Posted 2012-May-28, 19:17

View Post32519, on 2012-May-26, 03:29, said:

The 3 bid was understood to be the "second negative" and 0-4 HCP (see cheaper minor as the second negative above). ...

Interesting, I have always played 2NT as a 2nd negative, and it seems both pairs would have been better off with that here B-)

But I agree with Agua, this is not a 2 opening for me, with 3 possible suits that may be the best strain in a hand that is hardly a rock-crusher.
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#20 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2012-May-29, 03:18

One option you probably have not looked at is 2 as a double negative; 2 through 3 as semi-positives (transfers from 2NT); and 2 as anything else (positive or balanced semi-positive. That is great on this hand (respond 2NT) but may not be so good on others.

If you really want a method that shines on such hands (without competition) then it is clear that a strong club or strong diamond system is better. Fow example, if treating this hand as a GF, you might have the auction start

1 = 15+ nat/bal or 18+ any
... - 1 = (almost) any non-GF
1 = 18+ 3-suited or any unbal GF
... - 2 = 3-5
2 = natural, GF
... - 3 = natural, decent suit

where it is clear that much more useful information has been exchanged than with most 2 methods. The flip side is that you have to deal with more interference and need to put (a lot) more work into the system.
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