[wank]

After playing tournaments in Spain and Portugal with prizes for the winners of almost 2000 euros (about 70% of entry fees returned as prizes), i was set to thinking where all the cash goes in England. We pay similar entry fees but our prizes are ridiculous (about 12% returned now I believe) - winning a 3 session 85ish table event nets you about 250 per pair.

Where does all the money go? I suspect the headquarters is absurdly inefficient - they have around 25 full time admin staff. This is not including all the directors. I'm wondering how this compares with other countries in Europe or down under. The ACBL is probably even worse than us though.

[ArtK78]

wank, on 2012-June-06, 12:16, said:

After playing tournaments in Spain and Portugal with prizes for the winners of almost 2000 euros (about 70% of entry fees returned as prizes), i was set to thinking where all the cash goes in England. We pay similar entry fees but our prizes are ridiculous (about 12% returned now I believe) - winning a 3 session 85ish table event nets you about 250 per pair.

Where does all the money go? I suspect the headquarters is absurdly inefficient - they have around 25 full time admin staff. This is not including all the directors. I'm wondering how this compares with other countries in Europe or down under. The ACBL is probably even worse than us though.

There are no prize tournaments in the ACBL. There used to be some, but they were separate from the regular tournaments.

[han]

25 full time staff sounds like a lot.

[JLOGIC]

Yeah I was amazed in Portugal when I won a couple of events and got handed a few thousand euros lol. Pretty nice.

[Fluffy]

This is going down sadly last years due to financial crisis, In 2004 we had 5 tourneys with 2000€ price in spain, and 3 in Portugal, in 2005 I think my father and I made around 12000€ together just from prizes. Now sadly they tell you that's the prize, but in reality when half the pairs they "expect" show up they jam the prices, to the point where you have to win for it to be worth it.

Even with 2000€ prices in La Manga where you played, the organizator of the event was know to live all year just from what she made from that tourney due to comissions from the hotel rooms during all the week.

In the other hand you have Biarritz tournament in south France, very popular Zia Mahmood and Lavazza team uses to play it. Lasts for 10 days, but talking just for the main evet, I remember 230 pairs showing up, first pair got 3000€, but we finished 9th and got only 300€ (less than what we payed for entry fee+hotel) with around 35000€ from entry fees, and the tourney being sponsored by lavazza they just gave about 7000€ in prices

[gnasher]

I'm not saying that the EBU is a model of efficiency, but I can think of several differences between England and Spain:
- The EBU makes a profit on its tournaments. These profits aren't just used on admninistration - they also fund, for example, teaching and international teams.
- I expect that venues cost a lot more in England than in Spain.
- English events rarely obtain significant sponsorship. Events in continental Europe always seem to have half a dozen different sponsors.

The EBU's accounts for 2011 are here:

http://www.ebu.co.uk..._statements.pdf

On page 16 you'll find figures for each EBU tournament.

Taking Brighton as an example, the costs as a proportion of entry fees were roughly:
Venue: 36%
Prizes: 19%
TDs: 30%
Other: 9%
Profit: 7%

[Fluffy]

TDs costing more than prizes its so ridicoulous, but I see it happens in all the world.

Not sure about EBU but in Spain there is a TD that I hear he wins 3000€ per tourney, and I mean 3 sessions of 24 boards. This is one of the reasons I got my TD license, I'm pretty sure I can do it much better than him.

[gordontd]

Fluffy, on 2012-June-06, 14:11, said:

Not sure about EBU but in Spain there is a TD that I hear he wins 3000€ per tourney, and I mean 3 sessions of 24 boards.

In the EBU most TDs earn closer to 5% of that. And lets not forget that the TD costs quoted include their accommodation & travel expenses.

[Cyberyeti]

I can remember playing a local half yearly tournament some years ago in Javea and the prizes from that were as much as the EBU gives away for some of their national stuff.

(Was odd to run into people I knew at that, I remember Mrs "thebiker" so I presume the man himself was also there).

[wank]

gnasher with regard to the venue expenditure, there was a comment from an EBU staffer in the EBU magazine saying that they receive comments about the venues but have neither the time, nor the staff to research venues. I would think that the whole raison d'etre of the ebu competition department was to find suitable venues for tournaments.

that they lack sufficient human resources to complete this task seems a little odd considering their staffing levels. by comparison, the welsh bridge union (for, yes, a smaller population) i was told has 1 full time staff member and 1 volunteer.

[Vampyr]

We were told that "Universal Membership", by shifting a fair proportion of administrative tasks to the clubs, would enable the EBU to operate with less staff. I am not surprised that this hasn't happened.

[Vampyr]

wank, on 2012-June-06, 16:23, said:

gnasher with regard to the venue expenditure, there was a comment from an EBU staffer in the EBU magazine saying that they receive comments about the venues but have neither the time, nor the staff to research venues. I would think that the whole raison d'etre of the ebu competition department was to find suitable venues for tournaments.

I think that the EBU's options are extremely limited with regard to venues anyway. I am sure that few people would like to move the Summer Meeting away from Brighton, but what other place there has the space and is remotely affordable? Similarly in Bournemouth -- the place is an absolute tip, but the EBU simply cannot afford nice places.

Last weekend the EBU significantly lowered the entry fees and prize money compared to last year. Only a small proportion of members win prizes, so I guess the lower entry fees are a good thing, as they make the event more affordable.

Still, only one pair or team can win an event, so the secondary goal is to get into the prizes. It's nice for a fair few people to get prizes and for the prizes to at least make a dent in the weekend's bar bill.

EDIT: I seem to recall that in Europe the venue is often a sponsor of the event, rather than the biggest expenditure.

This post has been edited by Vampyr: 2012-June-06, 17:01

[jallerton]

According to the 2011 EBU accounts, the average number of employees during the year to 31st March 2011 was 18 (13 full time and 5 part time). I don't think they have increased staff numbers since then. Where did you get the figure of 25 from?

[jallerton]

gordontd, on 2012-June-06, 15:00, said:

In the EBU most TDs earn closer to 5% of that. And lets not forget that the TD costs quoted include their accommodation & travel expenses.

Yes, indeed. On average, the TD costs are 20% of entry fees. I suspect that the main reason for the high 30% figure for the Brighton Congress is the very expensive prices being charged by Brighton hotels.

[jallerton]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-06, 16:48, said:

I think that the EBU's options are extremely limited with regard to venues anyway. I am sure that few people would like to move the Summer Meeting away from Brighton, but what other place there has the space and is remotely affordable? Similarly in Bournemouth -- the place is an absolute tip, but the EBU simply cannot afford nice places.

Last weekend the EBU significantly lowered the entry fees and prize money compared to last year. Only a small proportion of members win prizes, so I guess the lower entry fees are a good thing, as they make the event more affordable.

Still, only one pair or team can win an event, so the secondary goal is to get into the prizes. It's nice for a fair few people to get prizes and for the prizes to at least make a dent in the weekend's bar bill.

EDIT: I seem to recall that in Europe the venue is often a sponsor of the event, rather than the biggest expenditure.

I think you may be right about fewer prizes, but what do you mean by "significantly lowered" entry fees? According to the EBU diaries:

2010 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Fee - Full Congress £84
2011 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Fee - Full Congress £88
2012 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Fee - Full Congress £93

[FrancesHinden]

jallerton, on 2012-June-06, 17:19, said:

I think you may be right about fewer prizes, but what do you mean by "significantly lowered" entry fees? According to the EBU diaries:

2010 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Feee - Full Congress £84
2011 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Feee - Full Congress £88
2012 Spring Bank Holiday Entry Feee - Full Congress £93

According to the feedback form at the event, they had 'significantly reduced' the entry fee and lowered prize money as well, we were asked what we thought about that. Very odd that as you say it doesn't seem to be true.

[FrancesHinden]

Vampyr, on 2012-June-06, 16:41, said:

We were told that "Universal Membership", by shifting a fair proportion of administrative tasks to the clubs, would enable the EBU to operate with less staff. I am not surprised that this hasn't happened.

Do you know it hasn't happened? Do you know how many staff the EBU had 5 years ago, and how many it has now?
In 2008 they had 20 employees including 4 part time.
Now they have 18 includes 5 part time.

It's certainly gone down. Whether they are over-staffed or not I don't know (I would guess yes) but if we're going to discuss it, it would be fair to use accurate information.

[Vampyr]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-June-07, 12:35, said:

According to the feedback form at the event, they had 'significantly reduced' the entry fee and lowered prize money as well, we were asked what we thought about that. Very odd that as you say it doesn't seem to be true.

LOL I had no idea what the prices were; I foolishly assumed that they were telling the truth on the feedback form.

[Quantumcat]

Fluffy, on 2012-June-06, 14:11, said:

TDs costing more than prices its so ridicoulous, but I see it happens in all the world.

If the prize money is better than what the directors are paid, then you will get bad directors - all the good directors are very good players as well, so they would rather play because they will get more money that way.

[Vampyr]

Quantumcat, on 2012-June-07, 20:35, said:

If the prize money is better than what the directors are paid, then you will get bad directors - all the good directors are very good players as well, so they would rather play because they will get more money that way.

Not all directors are very good players, but in any case their fees and accommodation are guaranteed. The prize fund would have to be pretty spectacular for their equity to be the same.