[lalldonn]

My first instinct was a forcing pass, but reading the comments and thinking a bit longer I like double. It's definitely true that the ace of hearts is more a card for defense than offense even if partner has a heart.

[jogs]

helene_t, on 2012-August-15, 09:12, said:

What's the alternative? 4♥ (don't you play that as a splinter?) Playing 3♥ as a gf?

I have already suggested an alternative. 2♠ was hearts and a minor. 3 of a minor by us should be 4+ of that minor and 4+ spades.

[Phil]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-15, 11:02, said:

My first instinct was a forcing pass, but reading the comments and thinking a bit longer I like double. It's definitely true that the ace of hearts is more a card for defense than offense even if partner has a heart.

Watch and learn n00bs.

This is the art of presenting a reasonable minority viewpoint without placing your 175 lbs on a 2" limb.

(I considered, and rejected pass too).

[billw55]

lalldonn, on 2012-August-15, 11:02, said:

It's definitely true that the ace of hearts is more a card for defense than offense even if partner has a heart.

I didn't see how big the difference is. Then I looked back at Phil's example hands in post 18, and realized that changing a minor suit spot to a heart would not alter declarer's prospects in 6♠ at all. Whereas on defense it is of course a certain trick. I learned something here.

[jogs]

1. ♠ AQJxxx ♥ x ♦ KQxxx ♣ x
2. ♠ AQJxxx ♥ x ♦ x ♣ KQxxx

If opener has hand 1, you want to be in 6♠.
If opener has hand 2, you want to defend 6♥X.

If you had bid 3♦ on your first turn, opener would know whether to bid 6♠ or double 6♥.

With 6=1=4=2, you usually want to defend.

[JLOGIC]

I would hammer them and don't find it to be close

[Cyberyeti]

jogs, on 2012-August-15, 12:19, said:

I have already suggested an alternative. 2♠ was hearts and a minor. 3 of a minor by us should be 4+ of that minor and 4+ spades.

So what do I do with my near solid 6 card minor and no spade fit? 3♦ shows more diamonds than this and usually no spade fit. Most hands with ♦/♠ can bid 4♦, this hand has insufficient diamonds.

Is 2N in the frame as a spade raise as the first action ? but with 3♥ meaning what it did, I'm not unhappy with it.

[jogs]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-15, 15:01, said:

So what do I do with my near solid 6 card minor and no spade fit? 3♦ shows more diamonds than this and usually no spade fit. Most hands with ♦/♠ can bid 4♦, this hand has insufficient diamonds.

Is 2N in the frame as a spade raise as the first action ? but with 3♥ meaning what it did, I'm not unhappy with it.

In an unscientific study(sample size too small) fewer than 20% of boards are played in a minor. Does anyone have a large study on this?

Quote

So what do I do with my near solid 6 card minor and no spade fit?

Under my methods these hands are unbiddable. Assuming you have 6 card minor with 100 honors, these hands usually belong in notrumps. Don't think any system has a way to stop at 3♦, when that is the last makeable contract.

2NT can be artificial showing an minor. With a spade raise show the 4+ card side suit. With a 3-card spade raise double first.

1♠ - (2♥) - X
or
1♠ - (2♠) - X

These auctions shouldn't be a traditional negative double. It's not asking opener to rebid a minor. It's mostly shows a 3 card raise or some strong hand with no other convenient bid. Opener would still rebid the minor at the 3 level with 5-4.

[sailoranch]

jogs, on 2012-August-15, 21:52, said:

Don't think any system has a way to stop at 3♦

Transfers

[sailoranch]

deleted

[yin970902]

I will bid 6♠.
North bids 5♠,not Double, not Pass.

Quote

pass would have been forcing

what is in his hands?
♥is void!what about ♣?Kx or Ax or x?

Maybe as this:
♠AJ10xxx ♥--♦KQxxx ♣kx

[jillybean]

When do we get the full hand?

[gnasher]

jillybean, on 2012-August-15, 23:36, said:

When do we get the full hand?

You don't, because it's not relevant. We'd had a misunderstanding about the 3♥ - partner thought it was a weak raise or a game-force (with 3♠ showing exactly a limit raise). If he had known I had a limit raise, he would have made a slam try over 5♥, or even just bid slam. As I said earlier, this is just a problem that I found interesting. There is no interesting story to go with it.

In case you're wondering how we could get such an everyday sequence wrong, it's because we play two different transfer structures in competitive sequences, and one of us forgot which one applied here. Maybe we shouldn't play so much stuff.

[Cyberyeti]

Quote

So what do I do with my near solid 6 card minor and no spade fit? 3♦ shows more diamonds than this and usually no spade fit. Most hands with ♦/♠ can bid 4♦, this hand has insufficient diamonds.

jogs, on 2012-August-15, 21:52, said:

Under my methods these hands are unbiddable. Assuming you have 6 card minor with 100 honors, these hands usually belong in notrumps. Don't think any system has a way to stop at 3♦, when that is the last makeable contract.

Solid suits are not so much as a problem, AKJxxx/AQJxxx where you do somewhat care about partner's holding are. Not suggesting playing 3♦, but I care when partner has ♠KQ10xx if his side suit is K/Qxxx in my minor or the other one.

If I have x, xxxx, AKJxxx, Ax and partner has AKJxxx, x, Qxxx, xx or AKJxxx, x, xx, Qxxx on the first I want to be in 5 or 6 diamonds, on the second I probably want to be in 4♠ (not sure I can stop in 3), how do I tell them apart if I can't bid my suit.

Quote

2NT can be artificial showing an minor. With a spade raise show the 4+ card side suit. With a 3-card spade raise double first.

This is revolting, what if I don't have a side suit, 4333 or my side suit is xxxx.

Quote

1♠ - (2♥) - X
or
1♠ - (2♠) - X

These auctions shouldn't be a traditional negative double. It's not asking opener to rebid a minor. It's mostly shows a 3 card raise or some strong hand with no other convenient bid. Opener would still rebid the minor at the 3 level with 5-4.

1♠-2♠-X is often played in the UK as ability to penalise at least one and often 2 of opps suits.

1♠-2♥-X we certainly play as a standard negative double.

[han]

gnasher, on 2012-August-16, 00:52, said:

You don't, because it's not relevant. We'd had a misunderstanding about the 3♥ - partner thought it was a weak raise or a game-force (with 3♠ showing exactly a limit raise). If he had known I had a limit raise, he would have made a slam try over 5♥, or even just bid slam. As I said earlier, this is just a problem that I found interesting. There is no interesting story to go with it.

In case you're wondering how we could get such an everyday sequence wrong, it's because we play two different transfer structures in competitive sequences, and one of us forgot which one applied here. Maybe we shouldn't play so much stuff.

Not seeing the hand is fine, but in that case I think you should post some conclusive remarks.

[jogs]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-16, 02:21, said:

If I have x, xxxx, AKJxxx, Ax and partner has AKJxxx, x, Qxxx, xx or AKJxxx, x, xx, Qxxx on the first I want to be in 5 or 6 diamonds, on the second I probably want to be in 4♠ (not sure I can stop in 3), how do I tell them apart if I can't bid my suit.

Big hands aren't the problem and they occur with low frequency and it is possible to find a massive fit. It is the weaker ones which are hard to bid.
x, xxxx, AQJxxx, Qx. If this hand doesn't fit well with opener's, let the opponents play the 3 level. There isn't sufficient bidding room for us to be certain. We could pass first and compete if they try to stop in 3♣.
x, xxxx, Qx, AQJxxx. With this hand we are just frozen out of the auction. It is unlikely we belong on the 4 level in clubs.

Quote

This is revolting, what if I don't have a side suit, 4333 or my side suit is xxxx.

Flat hands play poorly. Treat 4333 as 3-card support.

Quote

1♠-2♥-X we certainly play as a standard negative double.

I have never seen this sequence written up completely. What exactly does a standard negative double look like?
What's the ideal pattern and HCP strength?

[Cyberyeti]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-16, 02:21, said:

If I have x, xxxx, AKJxxx, Ax and partner has AKJxxx, x, Qxxx, xx or AKJxxx, x, xx, Qxxx on the first I want to be in 5 or 6 diamonds, on the second I probably want to be in 4♠ (not sure I can stop in 3), how do I tell them apart if I can't bid my suit.

Quote

Big hands aren't the problem and they occur with low frequency and it is possible to find a massive fit

.

A 12 count is hardly massive, and what do you propose to do over 4♥ if you have say 3 small hearts and haven't yet shown your diamonds ?

Quote

It is the weaker ones which are hard to bid.
x, xxxx, AQJxxx, Qx. If this hand doesn't fit well with opener's, let the opponents play the 3 level. There isn't sufficient bidding room for us to be certain. We could pass first and compete if they try to stop in 3♣.
x, xxxx, Qx, AQJxxx. With this hand we are just frozen out of the auction. It is unlikely we belong on the 4 level in clubs.

You just bid 3m and pass 3♠, not ideal, but allows you to bid the other hands.

Quote

This is revolting, what if I don't have a side suit, 4333 or my side suit is xxxx.

Quote

Flat hands play poorly. Treat 4333 as 3-card support.

OK, but what am I supposed to do with Kxxx, Axx, xxxx, Ax

Quote

1♠-2♥-X we certainly play as a standard negative double.

Quote

I have never seen this sequence written up completely. What exactly does a standard negative double look like?
What's the ideal pattern and HCP strength?

2344 10 count maybe ? or possibly 22(45)

[jogs]

Regardless of system there will be hands which can't be handled.
---------------------------
Flat hands play poorly. Treat 4333 as 3-card support.

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-16, 08:03, said:

OK, but what am I supposed to do with Kxxx, Axx, xxxx, Ax

This is a good hand. Force to 4♠ with this hand.

Kxxx, Qxx, QJxx, KJ

This is a problem hand. I have no ideal how many tricks can be made in spades.
And it may be dependent on opponents' patterns.
------------------------
I have never seen this sequence written up completely. What exactly does a standard negative double look like?
What's the ideal pattern and HCP strength?

Quote

2344 10 count maybe ? or possibly 22(45)

Yes, but how does opener rebid with a 5233 minimum?

[Cyberyeti]

jogs, on 2012-August-16, 12:36, said:

Yes, but how does opener rebid with a 5233 minimum?

Not sure, I never hold one, I open 1N on those.

[jogs]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-August-16, 14:49, said:

Not sure, I never hold one, I open 1N on those.

Playing 12-14 NT.
A 5233 minimum would look like
QJ752, A3, KQ4, QJ6

Also do you ever open 1NT with 5 card majors?