[kgr]

---

3D 'forced' when partner opens 3C (preempt D, GF majors, GF minors or GF H) in 4th hand.
3C followed by 3S shows a game force hand with both majors.
5NT undefined (what should it mean?).
Who is to blame to for missing 7H?

[Codo]

Maybe the method which made it impossible to find out about the 4 card fit and the King of hearts in the south hand?

[aguahombre]

Don't we have to know what South did over 5NT? If South answered "Josephine", then we need to know whether they agreed at the time about what 5NT meant and what South's response meant.

North only wants four hearts (known) and the king. Did South's 6-bid (whatever it was) show the King? I know the OP stated 5NT was undefined, but in this case it can only be GSF. The strain is already picked.

[kgr]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 08:55, said:

Don't we have to know what South did over 5NT?

Sorry, Edited the OP

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 08:55, said:

If South answered "Josephine", then we need to know whether they agreed at the time about what 5NT meant and what South's response meant.

We have "Josephine" on our system, but only when it is done with jump after fit is set. Do you think it should be "Josephine"?

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 08:55, said:

North only wants four hearts (known) and the king. Did South's 6-bid (whatever it was) show the King?

Yes, 4 hearts almost sure after 5H bid. 6H by South was weakest possible bid (both if 5NT was GSF or just asking extras.)

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 08:55, said:

I know the OP stated 5NT was undefined, but in this case it can only be GSF. The strain is already picked.

GSF="Josephine"? Is it also not possible that it asks extra's.
Maybe "Josephine" is best, not sure.
BTW: We now have basic agreements about Josephine:
"With a clear fit a jump to 5NT is Josephine. Bid 6 in trump without a top-honor (A, K, Q). Bid 6C with 1 top honor trump and 7 in trump with 2 top honors. Instead of 6C or 7 in trump you can bid 6/7 in another suit with an extra honor in that suit (Maybe it is 6NT or 7NT)"
Maybe it is better to distinguish between trump A, K and Q if there is place.
...anyway, if 5NT is Josephine then South can probably bid 7H.

[aguahombre]

We have a simple response structure to GSF, depending on how many steps are available, granted there are damned few times when "pick a slam" isn't a better use for 5NT....this is one of those times.

With hearts trump, there are 3 (other than just bidding at the seven level with 2/3):
--clubs=zilch or Q
--diamonds=K
--hearts=A

If spades are trump the four steps allow separation of zilch from queen.
If Diamonds are trump the two steps are: C=0/Q D=A/K.

Edit: 5S, rather than 5N can be used to probe for "extras" whatever they might be.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2012-October-08, 09:35

[kgr]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 09:31, said:

We have a simple response structure to GSF, depending on how many steps are available, granted there are damned few times when "pick a slam" isn't a better use for 5NT....this is one of those times.

With hearts trump, there are 3 (other than just bidding at the seven level with 2/3):
--clubs=zilch or Q
--diamonds=K
--hearts=A

If spades are trump the four steps allow separation of zilch from queen.
If Diamonds are trump the two steps are: C=0/Q D=A/K.

Thanks!
We tend to bid to 6 with the worst nbr. You are not doing that here to allow 6D after 6C to ask if it is 0 or Q?

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 09:31, said:

Edit: 5S, rather than 5N can be used to probe for "extras" whatever they might be.

Makes sense. In the above bidding this would give something like:
- 5NT: Josephine
- 5S: Asks extras => Something like: partner bids 6C/6D with the Ace or 5NT with other extras (e.g side King).
- 6C: Asks ♠A
- 6D: Asks ♠A or ♣A
Now, suppose South had ♥&♠ switches and did bid 5♠ iso 5♥.
Then?:
- 5NT: Josephine
- 6C: Cue, asking extras => 6♦=♦A; 6♥=♥K or Q; 6♠=no extra
- 6D: Asks ♣A
- 6H: ??
=> does that make sense or do you see this different
(This is with North have a 2-suiter and Kings in side suite maybe not useful)

[aguahombre]

kgr, on 2012-October-08, 10:16, said:

Thanks!
We tend to bid to 6 with the worst nbr. You are not doing that here to allow 6D after 6C to ask if it is 0 or Q?

Makes sense. In the above bidding this would give something like:
- 5NT: Josephine
- 5S: Asks extras => Something like: partner bids 6C/6D with the Ace or 5NT with other extras (e.g side King).
- 6C: Asks ♠A
- 6D: Asks ♠A or ♣A
Now, suppose South had ♥&♠ switches and did bid 5♠ iso 5♥.
Then?:
- 5NT: Josephine
- 6C: Cue, asking extras => 6♦=♦A; 6♥=♥K or Q; 6♠=no extra
- 6D: Asks ♣A
- 6H: (choice of slams with an extra heart?)
=> does that make sense or do you see this different
(This is with North have a 2-suiter and Kings in side suite maybe not useful)

I don't see any glaring flaws in what you are saying. I did make a sneaky edit of the quote.

[kgr]

Codo, on 2012-October-08, 08:47, said:

Maybe the method which made it impossible to find out about the 4 card fit and the King of hearts in the south hand?

What method would you use?
2♣-(2♦)-p-(5♦)
?

[kgr]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 10:31, said:

I don't see any glaring flaws in what you are saying. I did make a sneaky edit of the quote.

Thanks a lot for the responses!!

[ArtK78]

The question is whether South, with Kxxx of hearts and no other useful cards (it is hard to see how useful the ♠J might be) can bid a grand slam.

Clearly North is looking to bid a grand slam, having shown a game forcing hand with both majors and getting a preference for hearts. Is that enough? I doubt it.

North's 5NT bid could be a generalized grand slam try requesting (hoping?) that South cue bid a minor suit ace. Picture North with this hand:

AKQTxx
AQJxx
x
A

or the actual North hand with a small club instead of the club ace.

I am sure that both of these hands are consistent with the auction.

So, I don't see any way that either partner can bid the grand with any confidence.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 09:31, said:

Edit: 5S, rather than 5N can be used to probe for "extras" whatever they might be.

When ♥ are agreed, 5S! can be used as Josephine which allows room to distinguish :

5NT = zilch
6C = ♥Q
6D = ♥K
6H = ♥A
7H = 2 of 3

[ArtK78]

TWO4BRIDGE, on 2012-October-08, 11:31, said:

When ♥ are agreed, 5S! can be used as Josephine which allows room to distinguish :

5NT = zilch
6C = ♥Q
6D = ♥K
6H = ♥A
7H = 2 of 3

That is all well and good, but on the actual hand North needs South to hold KQx or Kxxx or better for a grand slam to be a good proposition. So, it is still not good enough.

Suppose South had exactly x and KQ in the majors. If North bid 5♠ Josephine as recommended, South would bid the grand and it would be a poor proposition, requiring either the ♠J doubleton or tripleton or, if declarer decided to ruff a spade with a heart honor, a doubleton ♥J.

[Codo]

kgr, on 2012-October-08, 10:37, said:

What method would you use?
2♣-(2♦)-p-(5♦)
?

yes quite likely after pass pass pass 2 ♣ that the bidding explodes this way... But I did not even meant that you should use the mainstream approach,no need to bid 1 or 2 ♣ with strong hands, despite the fact that all experts do it.

But if you play your stuff, you should have an idea how to use the limited space you have. So, after 5 ♥ you simply should know what 5 ♠ 5 NT and 6 m bids show. The poles f.e. use 5 NT quite often as Blackwood if 4 Nt is no longer possible. Had worked quite well here...

And you should be on the same wavelength about 5 and 6 ♥. I have no idea, why this should promise four Hearts. I had bid it with say 2335 too, as I have a clear preference for hearts.

[Codo]

kgr, on 2012-October-08, 10:37, said:

What method would you use?
2♣-(2♦)-p-(5♦)
?

Your example is not so well taken, after pass- pass-pass it is not so likely that the biddng will explode this way. But anyway, no need for you to play what anybody else is playing. Just tune up your system, so that both of you know how much hearts the freely bidden preference should show and what to do over their sacrifices, namely with 5 NT- you got a lot of feedback here, so I won't repeat their ideas.
I just wonder why south should hold 4 hearts. I had bid 5 Heart with say xx, QJx,Axxx,xxxx too.

[Fluffy]

I am a bi lost, didn't south make a voluntary bid at the 5 level?, What is north waiting for?

[ArtK78]

Fluffy, on 2012-October-08, 13:17, said:

I am a bi lost, didn't south make a voluntary bid at the 5 level?, What is north waiting for?

North showed a game forcing major suited hand, presumably at least 5-5. South could very reasonably bid 5♥ with a heart holding that is not sufficient for a grand slam - say, QJxx.

[Fluffy]

So if partner has ♥K its 90% slam, if he doesn't its 40%, how often will partner have ♥K for a 5♥ bid? 75%?, maybe I am overeimating the percentages, but looks like a 70% grand slam at least

[ggwhiz]

aguahombre, on 2012-October-08, 09:31, said:

We have a simple response structure to GSF, depending on how many steps are available, granted there are damned few times when "pick a slam" isn't a better use for 5NT....this is one of those times.

With hearts trump, there are 3 (other than just bidding at the seven level with 2/3):
--clubs=zilch or Q
--diamonds=K
--hearts=A

I play almost the same thing but

diamonds = 1 of the top 2
hearts = 1 of the top 2 with extra (than expected) length

Without something like that agreed, the grand could be a crapshoot with Kxx of hearts opposite and you can't really bid it missing the Queen.

[aguahombre]

ggwhiz, on 2012-October-09, 21:28, said:

I play almost the same thing but

diamonds = 1 of the top 2
hearts = 1 of the top 2 with extra (than expected) length

Without something like that agreed, the grand could be a crapshoot with Kxx of hearts opposite and you can't really bid it missing the Queen.

Not being familiar with the OP's 4th-chair treatment of the 3C opening, which I happen to like even though I haven't thought about it before ---I made some assumptions, which may or may not be those of the OP.

The assumptions were about responder's options at the point he bid 5H. It should be a FP situation, IMO; and, with Pass, double, and 5/6M available it would seem that a major-suit freebid would absolutely contain 4 of that suit.

If the possibility responder only has 3-card support is real, then it would even change what 5NT is needed for.

[Zelandakh]

ArtK78, on 2012-October-08, 11:47, said:

That is all well and good, but on the actual hand North needs South to hold KQx or Kxxx or better for a grand slam to be a good proposition. So, it is still not good enough.

The scheme I posted in the other thread could handle this

5NT = ace (6♣ asks if extra length)
6♣ = king (6♦ asks if extra length)
6♦ = queen
6♥ = none
6♠ = KQ
6NT = AQ

So with KQx the response would be 6♠, or with Kxxx the response is 6♣, then 6♦ finds the 4th heart.