[Ant590]

Hey all,

A hand in bidding practice today

---

How do you play 2♦? Is there a meta-rule here, or is a case-by case job?
Would the answer change if 1♠ was non-forcing?

Thanks in advance,
Ant.

[MrAce]

 Ant590, on 2012-October-10, 15:10, said:

Hey all,

A hand in bidding practice today

---

How do you play 2♦? Is there a meta-rule here, or is a case-by case job?
Would the answer change if 1♠ was non-forcing?

Thanks in advance,
Ant.

1♠ is NF regardless of what you or your pdship thinks it is, you are coming from pass.

I play this 2♦ as cue (general force without clear direction yet) , here people will get in with a lot of ideas about what kind of cue it is, does it show or deny fit and how many cards fit etc etc... I wouldn't be surprised to see people who plays it natural, but i for one can live without using this 2♦ as natural while i can not live without having a cuebid available, which allows me to start a strong constructive auction to learn more about my pds hand, without having to jump and flip in the air all that stuff...

[bluecalm]

Just a strong hand. You need a bid for:

xx AKJxx Axx Axx or:
Qxx AKxxx xx AKxx or:
x KQJxx Axx AQxx

I think it should be 15-17 in principle. With our hand we are just below GF opposite that so I would bid 2NT which should deny 5 spades, 2 hearts and 6 card minor.
I wouldn't expect it to be universal understanding though.

[ahydra]

Qxx AKxxx xx AKxx has 14 cards. But take away one of the diamonds and that'd be about what I'd expect for a 2D bid (upper-end of overcall range, general force, no clear direction). I guess partner should reply 2NT/3NT if he has a stop.

Certainly the bid denies 4-card spade support and almost certainly denies a stop in diamonds.

ahydra

[Fluffy]

 ahydra, on 2012-October-12, 03:43, said:

Certainly the bid denies 4-card spade support and almost certainly denies a stop in diamonds.

If by denies 4 spades you mean that it shouldn't have 4 spades except for a rare case where looking for slam then you will be right.

[kenrexford]

An example for me (playing natural) might be ♠x ♥AKxxx ♦AQxxx ♣xx.

[lalldonn]

Clee and I recently agreed it is forcing and artificial if the partner of the overcaller bids a suit, but non-forcing and natural if he bids notrump. On this hand I would bid 3♣ (assuming I had not passed the round before, which I probably would have).

[Ant590]

Thanks for you input everyone

[aguahombre]

 kenrexford, on 2012-October-12, 10:52, said:

An example for me (playing natural) might be ♠x ♥AKxxx ♦AQxxx ♣xx.

Since the 1S advance is not a 4-bagger for us, we haven't found a hand that needs the 2D rebid to show anything other than what Ken shows.

We can raise spades with 3+ spades, bid clubs with clubs, rebid our suit with more there...etc. OH, I forgot. We can pass with a pass, too.

[lalldonn]

 aguahombre, on 2012-October-13, 16:09, said:

Since the 1S advance is not a 4-bagger for us, we haven't found a hand that needs the 2D rebid to show anything other than what Ken shows.

We can raise spades with 3+ spades, bid clubs with clubs, rebid our suit with more there...etc. OH, I forgot. We can pass with a pass, too.

What can you do with Qx AKJxx xxx AQx?

[aguahombre]

2C would be the punt rebid with that specific strength/shape...not perfect, but not exactly directionless. Pass would be fine with less.

[lalldonn]

What about Ax AKQJx xxx xxx?

And what's the heaviest you would bid 1♠? Would you bid a NF 1♠ with KQJxx xx xx Axxx and play 1♠ with 11 easy tricks in a major opposite that above example or is there some other bid for this hand?

What would you bid over 1♠ with x KQxxx xxx AJTx? (2♣, or else you have to play a dumb 5-1 fit?) What about with x AKQJx xxx AQJx (3♣?) If I'm right about those, 2♣ is either 10 with 4+ clubs or 16 with 3 clubs? I don't really understand how that can work well.

I used to play the 2♦ rebid natural. Then it was shown to me that you give up a lot. It's not only strong hands without direction although those are clearly a problem, but you can differentiate three or four card support for partner, you don't have to jump rebid a bad suit (what do you do with 16 and Kxxxxx of hearts?), you (apparantly) don't have to rebid a three card suit, etc. I came to realize it's just too much to lose all to gain one natural bid in the opposition suit.

[kenrexford]

The other hand type you are forgetting, though, is the hand where you overcall a four card heart suit with diamond length. If you want a really good reason to play 2D natural, come up with a suitable rebid with x-AKJx-AQxxxx-Qx.

[bluecalm]

Quote

I used to play the 2♦ rebid natural. Then it was shown to me that you give up a lot. It's not only strong hands without direction although those are clearly a problem, but you can differentiate three or four card support for partner, you don't have to jump rebid a bad suit (what do you do with 16 and Kxxxxx of hearts?), you (apparantly) don't have to rebid a three card suit, etc. I came to realize it's just too much to lose all to gain one natural bid in the opposition suit.

Yeah, same reason to play Gazilli in constructive bidding as 2D strong here.
I guess you could try Gazilli here with 2D natural as well although I really don't think that's better solution it would probably work reasonably well though.. If it starts at 15 (great 14 maybe like Ax AKQJx xxx xxx example you gave) then the only real cost is that now you play 3C partial instead of 2C one.

[aguahombre]

We don't know the term "gazzilli", although we do know it usually applies to opener's rebids. But, it seems we are sort of doing it in this situation..(1D) 1H (P) 1S (P) 2C, and occasionally in unimpeded auction 1D-1M-2C.

All this means is 2C is kind of either/or for us, and we don't seem to have run into disasters doing it. In at least two of Lalldonn's "what if's" 2C would land us in contention for the best strain and level because partner's rebids as advancer do not include passing with 5-2-2-4. It's all a matter of whether we think we can handle the continuations, or lack of continuations ---and we don't seem to have had problems with it. We play 5-2 or 2-5 major fits with probably the same frequency as if we used 2D as artificial....and occasionally we find our 5-3 fit in their opening bid suit.

That doesn't mean we think Josh and Clee's decision is wrong; it just means we like having 2D as natural and believe we can land on our feet with the hands which made them decide to use it as artificial.

And, no. 2C is not forcing for us.

[lalldonn]

 kenrexford, on 2012-October-13, 17:49, said:

The other hand type you are forgetting, though, is the hand where you overcall a four card heart suit with diamond length. If you want a really good reason to play 2D natural, come up with a suitable rebid with x-AKJx-AQxxxx-Qx.

It's true, I forgot all about ridiculous positions that I would never be in. I have a habit of failing to consider those.