[32519]

What the heck is 5-card major ACOL? I always thought ACOL invoked 4-card majors. I often get random pick-up partners in the Main BBO Club with "5-Card Major ACOL" in their profiles.

In how many other ways does regular ACOL differ from this? Or is this the only difference? Do these guys allow the 5-card major in their 1NT bid as well and then follow this up with some sort of Puppet sequence to discover the 5-card suit?

[FrancesHinden]

Technically it doesn't exist; as you say Acol (NOT ACOL) is a 4-card major system.
However what it is often intended to mean is

- 5 card majors
- weak NT
- light 2/1s (not promising a rebid i.e. 1S-2D-2S is non-forcing although usually 1S-2D-2H is forcing for one round but opener can pass a preference to 2S)
- limit raises

I play something not dissimilar with Jallerton (with a strong NT & a lot of subsequent system) and we describe it as '5-card majors Acol-style 2/1s'

[Zelandakh]

One of the very first systems I learnt (along with Culbertson) was 5 card major Acol with a 16-18 NT. At its heart Acol is a set of rules - approach forcing, new suits non-forcing except at 3 level, etc. This is what is meant. I also understand that in Holland it is not uncommon to play Acol with 5 card majors. I assume that is something similar although the Dutch often have some funny ideas about what Acol means...

[Cascade]

I have said before but its worth repeating i think someone at a NZ National Congress formed the acrostic

A ny
C ount
O r
L ength

after finding different partnerships playing Acol with weak or strong no trump and four or five card majors.

[Cyberyeti]

There was also a vogue in the 80s to play a variation where you opened the minor with 4M4m32 (which I'm among the minority that still do) with a wide range 1N rebid and Crowhurst enquiry, which means 1♠ is 5 card or 4333, so opening that rare shape 1m gives you a 5 card spade. 1♥ is 44 in the majors, 3433 or 5 cards, so you don't give up much to play 5 card majors if you open the 4M4m32 hands 1m.

[squealydan]

I'd guess 50-60% of players at my club who claim to play Acol adopt at least a 5-card spade suit, if not both majors, in their system.

And at the national Interprovincials recently I played against a pair with a system described as "modified Acol". Modified meant 5-card majors, 15-17 NT.

To answer the OP, in my experience it's rare to find a pair playing a weak-NT who open 1NT with a 5-card majors (unless the suit is truly awful). So if they rebid their major at the 2-level, they will often not have a 6-card suit, they'll just be stuck for a rebid with a minimum 5-3-3-2.

[Cyberyeti]

squealydan, on 2012-October-13, 15:22, said:

To answer the OP, in my experience it's rare to find a pair playing a weak-NT who open 1NT with a 5-card majors (unless the suit is truly awful). So if they rebid their major at the 2-level, they will often not have a 6-card suit, they'll just be stuck for a rebid with a minimum 5-3-3-2.

I would say just the opposite, we open 1N with anything we don't want to treat as a 6 card suit, 1♠-2♣-2♠ "guarantees" 6 and 1♠-2♦-2♠ is 6 or 5 spades and 4 clubs, and I don't think this is uncommon.

[32519]

FrancesHinden, on 2012-October-13, 08:55, said:

Technically it doesn't exist; as you say Acol (NOT ACOL) is a 4-card major system.
However what it is often intended to mean is

- 5 card majors
- weak NT
- light 2/1s (not promising a rebid i.e. 1S-2D-2S is non-forcing although usually 1S-2D-2H is forcing for one round but opener can pass a preference to 2S)
- limit raises

I play something not dissimilar with Jallerton (with a strong NT & a lot of subsequent system) and we describe it as '5-card majors Acol-style 2/1s'

Thanks for this Frances

I find myself in the camp who believe that Acol is very effective if you have decent agreements/continuation bidding structures. When my partner opens 1-of-a-suit, I expect one of the following hand types, a) an unbalanced hand, or b) 15+ HCP, or c) sometimes both. Opening 1NT with a 5M332 12-14 HCP hand makes sense. If partner can’t make a move over 1NT, that’s fine. I’ve limited my hand to 14 HCP. If the opponents make a penalty double of the 1NT bid, I can escape to the 5-card major. [This happened recently in our local club. Dummy held the ♥AK and 2 small trumps, just enough to get to dummy twice for declarer to finesse me (the doubler). The 2♠ contract made when a 5th trump was produced by declarer.]

When the bidding goes e.g. 1M-1NT-2m I expect partner to be showing a 5/4 distribution.

The one hand pattern that I haven’t been able to find a decent solution for in Acol is the 4441 12-14 HCP hand. Do you (or any other Acol player) have a good solution for these hand types?

[32519]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-13, 09:46, said:

I also understand that in Holland it is not uncommon to play Acol with 5 card majors. I assume that is something similar although the Dutch often have some funny ideas about what Acol means...

Zel

Do you perhaps have a comparison table somewhere that you can upload here setting out the differences between Dutch Acol and regular Acol? It will be hugely appreciated.

Thanks

[Zelandakh]

My understanding of Dutch Acol is minimal at best and I am sure Hans, Gerben, et al will know more. Nonetheless I believe it is essentially Swiss Acol with a strong NT. That is, you open 4 card suits up the line and 4=3=3=3 1♣ such that 1♠ is always 5+ and 1♥ is 5+ or precisely 44(32). I have also heard Dutch Acol refer to opening the lowest 4 card suit which is idetical to the above except for opening 1♠ with the 4=3=3=3 hand: this latter approach seems to me a bad idea. In fact, both variations look poor to me when compared with the closest alternatives - Swiss Acol and 5 card major systems.

Anyway, a rough comparison:-

1NT: TA 12-14 nv/15-17 vul; MA 12-14; DA 15-17; SA 12-14; BM 15-17; SC 15-17; UD 15-17
4M4m32: TA 1M; MA 1M; DA 1m; SA 1m; BM 1m; SC 1m; UD 1♣
4=3=3=3: TA 1♠; MA 1♠; DA 1♣ or 1♠ (see above); BM 1♣; SC 1♣; UD 1♣
4=4=3=2: TA 1♥; MA 1♥; DA 1♥; SA 1♥; BM 1♦; SC 1♣; UD 1♣
4=4=2=3: TA 1♥; MA 1♥; DA 1♥; SA 1♥; BM 1♣; SC 1♣; UD 1♣
(2-3)=4=4: TA 1♣ (or choice); MA 1♦; DA 1♣; SA 1♣; BM 1♦; SC 1♦; UD 1♣

Key:
TA = Traditional Acol
MA = Modern (English) Acol
DA = Dutch Acol
SA = Swiss Acol
BM = Better Minor (a misnomer; I mean the most popular American 5 card major style)
SC = Short Club (as BM but 4432 opens 1♣ so 1♦ promises 4)
UD = Unbalanced Diamond

There is room for discussion on some of these but I hope it carries across a general flavour and is somehow useful.

Finally, here is a short write-up of some sort of comparison. Note the last sentence which suggests "Modern Dutch Acol" would be a pure 5 card major system. Again, you would need to ask one of the other posters if this has actually happened.

[32519]

Thanks a ton for this Zel.

The link to the Pattya Website also has the answer to the 4441 hand problem which falls within the 12-14 HCP range (something which I never had a satisfactory solution for).

[Vampyr]

32519, on 2012-October-13, 23:57, said:

The one hand pattern that I haven’t been able to find a decent solution for in Acol is the 4441 12-14 HCP hand. Do you (or any other Acol player) have a good solution for these hand types?

We open 1♥ with this; this is the only hand we open a 4-card major with.

You can just accept that any action will be a lie, and keep them all open. Thus with different hands you might choose to:

• Imply a 5th ♥ by opening 1♥ and rebidding diamonds.
  
• Promise a 5th diamond by bidding and rebidding them.
  
• Promise a 2nd club by opening 1NT.
  
• Upgrade to a 1NT rebid.

And most importantly, remember that partner does not always respond 2♣!

[32519]

Paul Mendelson’s 1995 book “100 Tips for Better Bridge” had this to say in tip number 7:

Don’t open 4-4-4-1 hands with 12 or 13 points [here is an extract]
In most natural bidding systems, opener’s first two bids contain, by far, the largest amount of information that is imparted in any auction. In Acol – with a Weak NT – these are the two vital bids that describe the shape of the hand.
The problem with the 4441 hands is that, as they contain three features, they really need three bids to convey their content. In systems, like Acol, when you can’t freely bid two different 4-card suits, a considerable degree of lying is involved.
The result of all this is that you frequently end in 4-3 trump fits (having to trump in your own hand) and hopeless misfit NT contracts, short on points.
The solution is a simple one: don’t get yourself into this situation – don’t open the bidding with this distribution with only 12 or 13 points.

With 14 points or more, if your partner responds your singleton, you can rebid NTs without risking too much – it is not perfect, but it’s better…

With 12 or 13pts you have the perfect take-out double when the opponents open your singleton.

[Zelandakh]

FWiiW I open the 4=4=4=1 hand 1♦ in Acol and play the specific auction 1♦ - 2♣; 2♦ as a one round force that does not promise extra diamond length. Responder next bids a major if they have one and generally assumes a weak hand with 5+ diamonds unless Opener does something "special" (such as jumping to game or otherwise forcing) on their next bid.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-15, 05:20, said:

FWiiW I open the 4=4=4=1 hand 1♦ in Acol and play the specific auction 1♦ - 2♣; 2♦ as a one round force that does not promise extra diamond length. Responder next bids a major if they have one and generally assumes a weak hand with 5+ diamonds unless Opener does something "special" (such as jumping to game or otherwise forcing) on their next bid.

We also open 1♦ but make no concessions in the (NF) 2♦ rebid that we might only hold 4. We play a Bourke style 2♥ relay over the 2♦ rebid so our auctions are a little more complicated.

[Zelandakh]

The advantage of F1R is that you can also bid it with, for example, a 4441 19 count and thereby be sure of not missing a major fit. If it is not forcing then you have to lie with this hand, either treating it as balanced or picking a major and reversing into it (and possibly losing the other) unless playing some more complicated methods (which I believe you do). Making 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♦ forcing is something that can be done with pick-up partners - most of the alternatives require solid partnership understandings. That the alternatives might be better is neither here nor there; if I am playing Acol then I am generally looking for the system to be relatively simple.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-15, 06:50, said:

The advantage of F1R is that you can also bid it with, for example, a 4441 19 count and thereby be sure of not missing a major fit. If it is not forcing then you have to lie with this hand, either treating it as balanced or picking a major and reversing into it (and possibly losing the other) unless playing some more complicated methods (which I believe you do). Making 1♦ - 2♣ - 2♦ forcing is something that can be done with pick-up partners - most of the alternatives require solid partnership understandings. That the alternatives might be better is neither here nor there; if I am playing Acol then I am generally looking for the system to be relatively simple.

Even if you don't play the artificial 2N rebid I do, in modern weak NT acol 1♦-2♣-2N is usually played as GF so the 15+ hands are not a real issue.

[Vampyr]

Cyberyeti, on 2012-October-15, 09:21, said:

Even if you don't play the artificial 2N rebid I do, in modern weak NT acol 1♦-2♣-2N is usually played as GF so the 15+ hands are not a real issue.

Even if they were, reversing from a 4-card suit into another 4-card suit, as suggested above, is something one should really never ever ever do. This would be a much bigger distortion than eg the ones I suggested above for 12-14 hands, and the worst part is seriously misleading partner when you have a very strong hand and prospects of something or other.

[PhilKing]

Opening 1♦ (and rebidding 2♦ over 2♣) on 4441 12-14 works better than 1♥ in several ways:

1. Partner has two of your suit.
After 1♦-2♣-2♦, partner strains to bid 2NT with about 10 points. In the alternative sequence of 1♥-2♣-2♦, he just bids 2♥.

2. Partner has three of your suit.
If you have opened 1♥, parnter will generally jump to 3♥ on the second round to stress the genuine support. After opening a diamond partner has less reason to do this, since 5♦ is a long way off. If he has a 2335 10-11 count, he will prefer 2NT some of the time, whereas that will never happen with hearts.

3. Partner has 4 or 5 diamonds.
One diamond locates your fit for sure. After 1♥-1NT, the fit is lost.

4. Partner is strong.
In practice partner never plays you for four hearts when you open them and rebid Two Diamonds, and that is often fatal. Fourth suit followed by 3♥ is generally played as strong rather than 4441 checkback, for instance, so partner often just jumps to four. When you bid diamonds twice, partner will still explore for 3NT with 3-card support.

Passing 12-14 4441 hands is strongly recommended only if you are playing at the Hurlingham club, or wherever it is.

[broze]

Zelandakh, on 2012-October-13, 09:46, said:

At its heart Acol is a set of rules - approach forcing, new suits non-forcing except at 3 level, etc.

I really don't know much about ACOL despite being a Brit. What exactly does all this mean.