[Toradin]

IMPs

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Hi all, would you balance with a double, intending to correct clubs to diamonds? Thanks!

[SteveMoe]

The hand shown is about a K too light to double now - this delayed double is a penalty oriented call, showing 14+ HCP and primary ♦. It is not a weaker or offshape takeout double.

Doubling in the first round would be a flawed call but a better one compared to the delayed double. This hand is clearly off shape for a first round double. I am not advocating an immediate takeout double, just comparing the severity of the distortion.

Some people overcall in a 4-card major at the 1 level. If you feel compelled to take an action with this hand, a first round 1♠ call seems better than either double, but I would prefer a Q or K more.

Net, I would pass both times and hope partner can lead a ♠. Declarer has a rude awakening in ♦. BTW, the 1NT bidder likely holds ♣s.

[sfi]

I would have opened as dealer. Failing that I would have doubled at my second opportunity. But the double is not clearcut.

Other than that, what SteveMoe said. Doubling here is not takeout.

[P_Marlowe]

X is T/O, at least for us, and I am pretty sure, that this is not a minority
treatment.

Given we are a passed hand, we cant be stronger, only our diamond values could
be club values, which would improve the hand.

The only question is, if you go with X or with 2D, I would go with 2D a delayed Michaels
Cue, which in the passout (+ being green vs. red) needs no longer to be 55.

If you play a delayed 2D bid as natural, you have to double.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[PhilKing]

I play this double as take out of clubs. Usually I would be stronger, but with perfect shape I am definitely in.

[Codo]

Steve and Phil, care to share some of the stuff you are smoking?

14+? stronger? This is as strong as a passed hand can be. - Actually too strong for me, but taste may differ.


Besides: Being a passed hand or not: This is take out for the majors, and we rate to have short clubs usually, but partner will choose a major as often as possible.


P.S. Steve and Phil: I am known to miss such things more often then you do, so please do not take any offense from my first sentence.

[PhilKing]

Codo, on 2012-December-17, 08:58, said:

Steve and Phil, care to share some the stuff you are smoking?

14+? stronger? This is as strong as a passed hand can be. - Actually too strong for me, but taste may differ.

I recently switched to a strong pass system.

[sfi]

For those who think this is normally played as takeout, I offer a recent counter-example. East has won two US national titles in the last couple of years and was playing in an irregular partnership with another top player at a high level event earlier this month.

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The double earned 500, which then became 1000 when South redoubled.

[SteveMoe]

Codo, on 2012-December-17, 08:58, said:

Steve and Phil, care to share some of the stuff you are smoking?

14+? stronger? This is as strong as a passed hand can be. - Actually too strong for me, but taste may differ.


Besides: Being a passed hand or not: This is take out for the majors, and we rate to have short clubs usually, but partner will choose a major as often as possible.


P.S. Steve and Phil: I am known to miss such things more often then you do, so please do not take any offense from my first sentence.

You guessed it - I missed the original pass. Come to think of it I too would have opened this hand initially.
There is an active discussion in Bridgewinners on doubling after passing RHO's opening big. My mind was still there... no offense taken.

[Codo]

sfi, on 2012-December-17, 15:51, said:

For those who think this is normally played as takeout, I offer a recent counter-example. East has won two US national titles in the last couple of years and was playing in an irregular partnership with another top player at a high level event earlier this month.

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The double earned 500, which then became 1000 when South redoubled.

But there is a difference between a neboouls 1 ♦ followed by 1 NT and a 5 card 1 ♠ followed by 1 NT....
I had not doubled in your example, but if I had, it had been this kind of hand for sure- I am a chicken, I had waited for a little more strength.

[P_Marlowe]

sfi, on 2012-December-17, 15:51, said:

For those who think this is normally played as takeout, I offer a recent counter-example. East has won two US national titles in the last couple of years and was playing in an irregular partnership with another top player at a high level event earlier this month.

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The double earned 500, which then became 1000 when South redoubled.

A big difference here is, that East could have an opening hand, which in your original post can not be.

I still would play the X as T/O, due to frequency reasons, you may collect once in a while 500 (or 1000
due to the fact, that the opponents have a misunderstanding), but have no way to compete.
The probability, that you are short in spades and have 10-11 HCP is high enough to bring back minor swings,
not as impressive as 500 once in a while (or getting killed on the 2 level, which also happens), but they
exist, are not infrequent.
And of course it is easy to see 1NTxx=, on the given hand, if N/S have a combined 22-24HCP between them.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[sfi]

P_Marlowe, on 2012-December-18, 02:27, said:

A big difference here is, that East could have an opening hand, which in your original post can not be.

Sure. But it's not a big enough difference to change the meaning of the bid, IMO.

Quote

And of course it is easy to see 1NTxx=, on the given hand, if N/S have a combined 22-24HCP between them.

NS had a combined 21 count. The redouble showed a good hand, so no misunderstanding. The hand just didn't play well enough for declarer (swap the H9 and the H10 in the defenders' hands and it may well have made).

My argument for why it's not takeout is that the opponents' bidding make it no more inviting to double for takeout than on the previous round of the bidding. Given that you didn't think it was worth one then (an error with the original hand IMO), there's no reason to do so now. Sure you can make exceptions for passed hand or for major vs. minor, but I don't believe this is one of the times where it is standard to change it.

[P_Marlowe]

sfi, on 2012-December-18, 03:45, said:

Sure. But it's not a big enough difference to change the meaning of the bid, IMO.



NS had a combined 21 count. The redouble showed a good hand, so no misunderstanding. The hand just didn't play well enough for declarer (swap the H9 and the H10 in the defenders' hands and it may well have made).

My argument for why it's not takeout is that the opponents' bidding make it no more inviting to double for takeout than on the previous round of the bidding. Given that you didn't think it was worth one then (an error with the original hand IMO), there's no reason to do so now. Sure you can make exceptions for passed hand or for major vs. minor, but I don't believe this is one of the times where it is standard to change it.

In the end it does not really matter, if you have the agreement, X is for penalty (*), than you have to find a
different way to enter the auction.

(*) Which makes sense, although I would never play it, be it only for the simplicity of the agreement "All low level doubles
are for T/O", which avoids misunderstandings, besides my I believe that the frequency of a T/O is higher and a T/O is more useful, but this is my decision / experience, and this can change if time passes.

I partly missed the part, that 1D was precision, and hence limited.

The limited nature of the bid, is also an important factor to be taken into account, making the two sequences different,
and we would have gone in direct, our requirements for a T/O drop, when partner had the chance to speak.

On the other hand the limited nature of the 1D bid makes entering more dangerous, reducing the usefulness of a T/O,
I still would do it, ... basically take your pick.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[steve2005]

if 1♦ precision, which wasn't mentioned in 1st post. Then there is a lot to be said for doubling 1♦ immediately(not waiting for 1N bid) as takout for majors and doesn't promise any length in either minor, limiting your hand to a bad 12 pts.