[mike777]

MP Unfav vul.


1d=1h
?

T9....KT7...KQ753....A32

[JLOGIC]

If you ever raise with bal and 3 trumps 2H is obvious. If you systemically or stylistically choose not to that is understandable/fine and I wouldn't.

Personally I prefer to play a system where I can bid 2H with this so I'd do so.

[mike777]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-22, 00:55, said:

If you ever raise with bal and 3 trumps 2H is obvious. If you systemically or stylistically choose not to that is understandable/fine and I wouldn't.

Personally I prefer to play a system where I can bid 2H with this so I'd do so.

Thank you for taking the time to respond. I hope you will respond on the issue you raise and why you choose to play a style that bids 2h rather than bids 1nt.


I posted this problem, derived from a BW deal, from Jeff Meckstroth's comments that he hates 2h here. Not for the first time he states, with a bal minimum hand, one must rebid 1nt.


I post this with the hope to encourge comments and discussion.

[Mbodell]

While I'd obviously defer to both JLogic and Meck about bridge here, I think the advantages of (1nt with balanced hands, raises means unbalanced) are worth while and fairly obvious. Partner can better evaluate hands knowing that they are unbalanced and can compete better for part scores/competition with knowledge of frequent 4 card support for raise, and unbalanced otherwise. I also feel weak nt hands belong in 1nt, although you are at a disadvantage compared to 1nt all float due to information leakage. Obviously on some part score hands, particularly where responder is minimum but with 5 hearts, you can win by 2H being a better part score than 1nt. On hands that have inv+ or better and face no competition, both auctions are pretty good IMO to develop, so I think it matters much less, as 1m-1M-2M can have good agreements and systems and developments, as can 1X-1Y-1nt auctions (even though lower and slower is generally more flexible).

Countering that, as JLogic noted, this hand does look quite suitish for hearts with the T of hearts pulling extra weight, the Axx side suit, and KQ-fifth of our suit, and "smallish" no-wasted-hcp-doubleton in the T9 of spades ruffing value. If you make one of the minor spots into a heart pretty much everyone would raise, and that isn't that incredibly different from this hand in terms of your trick taking values.

[helene_t]

2h may help rightsiding 3nt. But obviously your game and slam bidding become more accurate if 2he denies this hand. It would also be nice if 1nt denied this hand but we have plenty of space after a.1nt rebid

[JLOGIC]

Yeah Meck hates raising with balanced 3 card raises. I believe that we rightside NT and play the correct partial more often by bidding 2H, so I prefer it, but it does make partners job more difficult.

Whatever, not a huge deal either way, just know what you play with your partner.

[JLOGIC]

I will say Meck>>>>>>>Jlall at bridge so going with him seems fine I will say Meckwell are probably a minority amongst top US players in this though, I think most would choose 2H rather than 1N. In many european countries (Poland, France...) they'd be a majority AFAIK though.

My general view on situations where neither strategy becomes dominant at the top is that it doesn't matter. Natural or strong club? Doesn't matter, go with your preference. Wk NT vs strong NT? Same thing. I prefer bidding 2H but I really don't think it matters.

Also FWIW meckwell will not rebid 1N with a stiff, and won't raise with 3, so if you watch them you will notice them almost routinely correcting 1N to 2M with a 5 card suit. I like to bid 1N with a stiff sometimes, so maybe that makes raising with 3 better since partner won't bid 2M with 5 as often. I think it is reasonable that if you rebid 1N fairly often with a stiff, you should raise with 3 more often, and if you never do maybe you should never raise with 3. I am not sure about that though.

[Fluffy]

Since I know my partner will bid 2M with 5 cards I do rebid 1NT with 3 card support and a side singleton.
I once rebid 1NT with a stiff in partner's suit, I had something like...

♠K
♥AQ10x
♦Kxx
♣Jxxxx

My father yelled to me for 5 minutes while he was strugging in 2♠ with ♠J9xxx: We play bridge!, not gamble bridge! (hard to translate), only after the sesssion he recognised I had a real rebid problem.

It took me years on BBF to realice that raising on 3 cards was a playable method, since I learned the total way around, and in my area only weak players do it . But I can't think of playing it that way without a convention that asks fo trump lenght.

For what its worth on my strong club partnership I have acepted that 1♦-1♠-2♠ and 1♥-1♠-2♠ might be done with 3 cards. But only with spades, 1♦-1♥-2♥ makes less sense since hearts are 4 cards more often than spades.

[Zelandakh]

JLOGIC, on 2013-February-22, 02:20, said:

I will say Meck>>>>>>>Jlall at bridge so going with him seems fine I will say Meckwell are probably a minority amongst top US players in this though, I think most would choose 2H rather than 1N. In many european countries (Poland, France...) they'd be a majority AFAIK though.

The same in Germany by the way. As I understand the local system:
NEVER raise with 3 card support
NEVER rebid 1NT with a singleton (nor with 4 spades)

For me, I think raising with 3 card support and an unbalanced hand suitable for suit play is a no-brainer. I can understand having a rule never to raise with 3 card support in a balanced hand though. If you play an unbalanced diamond then some of the problems just go away.

[billw55]

Zelandakh, on 2013-February-22, 04:56, said:

The same in Germany by the way. As I understand the local system:
NEVER raise with 3 card support
NEVER rebid 1NT with a singleton (nor with 4 spades)

I suppose this means they will commonly rebid a 5-card minor, even a bad one (such as Fluffy's hand)? Worth knowing when meeting a German flag on BBO.

[Zelandakh]

billw55, on 2013-February-22, 08:37, said:

I suppose this means they will commonly rebid a 5-card minor, even a bad one (such as Fluffy's hand)? Worth knowing when meeting a German flag on BBO.

Fluffy's hand would be a 1NT rebid since it does not contain a singleton. The things that you need to know are that they are willing to rebid a 3 card suit with the BW Death Hand, rather than make an offshape 2NT rebid, and that a 1♠ rebid can be a balanced hand while a 1NT rebid denies 4 spades. Also, that a 1NT opening will not normally contain a 5 card major. But the most confusing thing of all is that "Standard American" means all of these things with a 1♦ opening promising 4+ diamonds (and 1♣ 2+ clubs).

[SteveMoe]

I like the way Bobby Levin and Steve Weinstein think about this question: 1m-1M: Now what?
Holding the ♠109 I'll rebid 1N too.

[mike777]

Thank you Steve for taking the time to respond and post link....thank you.



I also passed this around on email.


All of the responses are great.

One stated Meckwell system was geared toward bidding light 9(NINE) card fit major suit games as well as light nt games.

I found this a very interesting comment, I hope others do as well.

If nothing else I hope the Master Players will continue to post play problems so we may improve our play.