[wank]

---

I was asked for my opinion on this ATB hand. I offered my opinion but didn't manage to convince the person asking, so I said I'd solicit more views.

2C is't GF, but promises a rebid and shows about 10+. The partnership doesn't play kickback/minorwood etc. RKCB responses would be 1430. Over 4S, 4NT would be to play, but 5C isn't forward going per se.

You may not consider the methods optimal, but it's a judgment question within that context.

edit: basic system is strong NT, 5542 openings, inverted raises over 1D. 2C only guarantees 4, but with most hands with only 4 you would find something else to bid, e.g. raising diamonds, bidding a major, bidding no-trumps at the 1/2/3 level naturally, so it's usually 5+. the only time you would have 4 is for a 3334 shape with too many points for 1NT and weak major holdings.

My view was that it was entirely on south. North's bidding pretty much demands slam unless south's 2/1 was based on values in hearts. To people who suggest 4S denies a diamond control, I think you're taking this up the line cuebidding a little too literally: sometimes you have to make the cue partner most needs to hear to avoid endplaying him. If we were most interested in hearing about diamonds we could bid 4C.

The south player, who asked me, thought he couldn't do more as he had a working 7 count for his 2 level response, whereas I said he has 2 keycards, extra club length, only 3 points wasted in hearts where he could easily have more after his 3NT call, and the potential to ruff out partner's diamonds. With 6 club tricks and 2 known heart ruffs in dummy, he doesn't need much in the way of high cards to make slam, yet his partner's bidding like a train.

[aguahombre]

IMO, North should just bid the slam. He could have wooded at his second turn for clubs, couldn't he? Don't think he was worried about a Zero answer. Now, he just goes.

[mike777]

if 2c is gf then no way north could ever stop short of slam.

OTOH if 2c was gf I am going to guess south pulled back since they dont have a 2c gf bid.

If 2c was not a gf bid then that brings up a whole host of other issues.

[Cyberyeti]

I presume I have to bid 4♣ over 3N to agree ♣ in the hope of being able to ask aces later, partner with absolutely nothing to cue will bid 5♣ and now I can pencil in the high cards as exactly what they are, although partner might only have 5 clubs. I think I bid 6 anyway. For this pair what is the minimum for the 2/1, so long as Jx, QJxx, Jx, Axxxx is not it I'm very confident.

[sfi]

I don't think much of South's 3NT bid with only one stopper - I would have gone with 5C to show good trumps but no outside controls, but would prefer 4C if that's the system bid. But once North bids 4S, South is likely to think there are two cashing red suit tricks. Why not 4D? Finally, having put South in this situation, North could have realised it and simply bid the slam.

In short, I think the decisions degenerated significantly after 3H.

[aguahombre]

mike777, on 2013-April-15, 16:28, said:

if 2c is gf then no way north could ever stop short of slam.

OTOH if 2c was gf I am going to guess south pulled back since they dont have a 2c gf bid.

If 2c was not a gf bid then that brings up a whole host of other issues.

If 2C were G.F., this auction would have been a whole lot shorter. 1D-3C-6C. I think we can assume it wasn't.

Assuming a fact not in evidence, of course...that a pair playing 2/1 as game force would not also employ Chris Cross leaving themselves no "outs" for this pattern and strength.

This post has been edited by aguahombre: 2013-April-15, 16:58

[CSGibson]

North. I have no understanding of 4♠, but it sure sounds like it denies 1st round controls of diamonds and hearts, maybe any controls in diamonds based on the cue-bid style. While it is barely conceivable that N has a hand that can bid that way without a diamond control (What does he have, AKQJ x QJTx QJxx?), bypassing the two red suits is both space consuming and potentially confusing to partner. Being right in theory doesn't help your final score very much when it goes wrong in practice because partner wasn't up to fielding your bid.

[CSGibson]

Cyberyeti, on 2013-April-15, 16:31, said:

I presume I have to bid 4♣ over 3N to agree ♣ in the hope of being able to ask aces later, partner with absolutely nothing to cue will bid 5♣ and now I can pencil in the high cards as exactly what they are, although partner might only have 5 clubs. I think I bid 6 anyway. For this pair what is the minimum for the 2/1, so long as Jx, QJxx, Jx, Axxxx is not it I'm very confident.

I'd be more worried about Kx KQx xx KTxxxx, which is consistent with the bidding.

[Cyberyeti]

CSGibson, on 2013-April-15, 17:05, said:

I'd be more worried about Kx KQx xx KTxxxx, which is consistent with the bidding.

That would be a 4♠ cue the way we bid, 4♣ would be a mandatory 1st/2nd cue situation, although I suppose K♥ is possible opposite the known shortage.

[mike777]

If we start with 1nt assuming 2/1 gf this makes the hand much easier....3c would be criss cross for me.

these posted examples all look like 1nt after 1d. I mean I assume we dont bid 2c on a junky ten pt hand with long junky clubs but it would help to know more.

otherwise it would help to know just what 2c shows if nongf. AGain if this is a minimum hand for 2c in your style then north has an easy bid of 6c at some point.

edit..it looks like OP edited post to make 2c not a gf so now so it still seems most of these other examples with junky clubs are a 1nt response.

[Cyberyeti]

mike777, on 2013-April-15, 17:18, said:

If we start with 1nt assuming 2/1 gf this makes the hand much easier....3c would be criss cross for me.

these posted examples all look like 1nt after 1d.

otherwise it would help to know just what 2c shows if nongf. AGain if this is a minimum hand for 2c in your style then north has an easy bid of 6c at some point.

It's not 2/1 GF, as specified in the OP.

[PhilKing]

South was at fault. North cannot conceivably not have good diamonds - he made a slam try even though we put on the brakes with 3NT, so he's got, of all things, a good hand and good controls. When North bids 4♠ the message is that he just needs good trumps from us. I know I'll never convince the must-cue-bid-up-the-line brigade, but it is what it is. Look at it this way: we could have a lot more wasted in hearts, we have a sixth club and we have a good suit. Could it possibly be that is what partner was looking for? And how can partner not have the cards we need?

From North's point of view, we are obviously off two bangers. eg:

♠Kxx ♥KJx ♦x ♣KJxxxx

[mike777]

PhilKing, on 2013-April-15, 17:41, said:

South was at fault. North cannot conceivably not have good diamonds - he made a slam try even though we put on the brakes with 3NT, so he's got, of all things, a good hand and good controls. When North bids 4♠ the message is that he just needs good trumps from us. I know I'll never convince the must-cue-bid-up-the-line brigade, but it is what it is. Look at it this way: we could have a lot more wasted in hearts, we have a sixth club and we have a good suit. Could it possibly be that is what partner was looking for? And how can partner not have the cards we need?

From North's point of view, we are obviously off two bangers. eg:

♠Kxx ♥KJx ♦x ♣KJxxxx

another example where I wonder do you bid 1nt or 2c with that.....I dont know this style so that is an important issue. I would bid 1nt.

[PhilKing]

mike777, on 2013-April-15, 18:24, said:

another example where I wonder do you bid 1nt or 2c with that.....I dont know this style so that is an important issue. I would bid 1nt.

It's possibly worse than that - I am assuming that it was a weak NT pair, in which case:

Kxx
AQx
Jxx
Jxxx

is a 2♣response, since pard passes 1NT with a minimum strong NT. Yes I know that hand bids 4NT now - just saying.

[MrAce]

wank, on 2013-April-15, 16:01, said:

2C is't GF, but promises a rebid and shows about 10+. The partnership doesn't play kickback/minorwood etc. RKCB responses would be 1430. Over 4S, 4NT would be to play, but 5C isn't forward going per se.

You may not consider the methods optimal, but it's a judgment question within that context.

Bro, may i ask how many clubs did 2♣ promise ? 4 or 5+ ? Not that it changes who i think is at fault but asking out of curiosity.

The comments that says North is at fault escapes me tbh.(with the given system agreements in hand of course)

[sfi]

mike777, on 2013-April-15, 18:24, said:

another example where I wonder do you bid 1nt or 2c with that.....I dont know this style so that is an important issue. I would bid 1nt.

This hand is too strong to bid 1NT, which shows 6-10 or so. 10+ hands with long clubs bid clubs.

Edit: PhilKing's hand looks a lot like a 2NT bid rather than 2C unless precluded by the system.

[PhilKing]

sfi, on 2013-April-15, 18:36, said:

This hand is too strong to bid 1NT, which shows 6-10 or so. 10+ hands with long clubs bid clubs.

Edit: PhilKing's hand looks a lot like a 2NT bid rather than 2C unless precluded by the system.

Natural 2NT bidders are a minority, even in the land of Acol. You just have to respond 2♣ and work it all out later.

Obviously it will turn out the pair does not even play Acol.

[mike777]

sfi, on 2013-April-15, 18:36, said:

This hand is too strong to bid 1NT, which shows 6-10 or so. 10+ hands with long clubs bid clubs.

Edit: PhilKing's hand looks a lot like a 2NT bid rather than 2C unless precluded by the system.

ahh ok that helps alot...any hand with crappy long clubs and 10+ bids 2c...got it....so that means south needs to a way to show great clubs and 10+

Perhaps over 3h south can not bid 3nt?
with crappy clubs and a h stop then 3nt?

[kenberg]

I was glad to see some late round suggestions that South was the culprit. It seems to me that North is practically shouting that unless South has the worst possible hand for it, he wants to be in a club slam. South may not have a great hand, but it's not so awful. His king of clubs could be a king of hearts and he certainly would bid 3NT with a broken five card club suit and a strong heart holding. I am not at all sure I would bid 3NT with the South hand but if I did, and if partner pulled to 4S, I think I would just bid 6C.I would expect to lose a heart and take the rest, just as it is.

[wank]

edited the OP to add my own view