[sceptic]

I would like to see some opinions about 1 club openers.

we are playing SAYC and it states that

4-4 in minors open Diamonds

3-3 in the minors open clubs

3-2 in the minors open 1 diamond

my question is about 1 club opener with

4/4/3/2

I think that 1 club should be opened with 2 clubs and 1 diamond should guarentee 4 diamonds minimum.

the reason behind this is that if we do NOT open 23+ hands or 4 loser with 2 or 3 suits as a 2 club bid, occasionally we have to open it as 1 club and we cant afford to pass this out, so the questions are should

A/. 1 club be forcing for one round?

B/. is this now short club not convienient minor?

C/. is this a sound way to play?

D/. benifits and concerns of this method if it is viable?

please add anyother comments you feel applicable

[the hog]

Quote Sceptic

"I think that 1 club should be opened with 2 clubs and 1 diamond should guarentee 4 diamonds minimum.

the reason behind this is that if we do NOT open 23+ hands or 4 loser with 2 or 3 suits as a 2 club bid, occasionally we have to open it as 1 club and we cant afford to pass this out, so the questions are should

A/. 1 club be forcing for one round?

B/. is this now short club not convienient minor?

C/. is this a sound way to play?

D/. benifits and concerns of this method if it is viable?

please add anyother comments you feel applicable "

I think this is a sensible and effective way to play. If your 1C bid is forcing, however, you are virtually playing Polish Club and may as well go over to that.
You could also play 1C as nf and play Walsh or transfer Walsh style responses. Playing 1D as guaranteeing 4+ is a big winner in competitive auctions.

[sceptic]

thx Ron,

What about if the basic responses become 1 diamond (negative) denial of continuation and 2 diamond then becomes diamond suit with interest in continuing and denying a 4 card major? other bids as normal?

[the hog]

That works ok. 1D is a -ve if 1C is a 1 rd force. Would suggest though that 2d should be gf with D, else you will have difficulties in showing this hand type. You can play it as denying a 4 card Major - mafia style or not, both methods are playable.

With 5D in some 5332 hand in the range 6-9, just bid 1NT. Nothing is lost.
1C 3D can be invit with 6 very good Ds - you get to bid some nice 3NT that way.

The above is pretty much Polish Club style.

[Flame]

Why dont you open 23+ hands with 2c ?
About 4432 this is an old question with no best answer, there are benefits each way. If you want 1c to be forcing dont play sayc play a kind of polish club.
If you want it to be almost forcing you can play what boochi dubin play which is pass with 0-3 and trasfers with more. (they used to play it forcing but i guess they find out its better not to)

[HeartA]

With 4=4=3=2, (12-14 or 18-19 since my 1N range is 15-17) I might open anything: 1C/1H/1S, if the suit has more than half of the hcp. With scattered hcp, I open 1D.

[paulg]

The anglicised version of 5 card majors indeed guarantees 4 diamonds for a 1♦ opener and hence 1♣ only promises 2 clubs. However most of us do not play the 1♣ opening as forcing as there is practically no danger of it being passed out (and treat it as a normal suit when responding).

The EBU defines this system as "Short Club".

I've played this for some years. We've now gone further and put all balanced hands outside of the 1NT range into 1♣, so 1♦ is now always 5+ diamonds unless precisely 4=4=4=1 ... but we do play lots of gadgets, such as transfer responses, to make this workable.

p

[helene_t]

I agree with cardsharp. I've played a non-forcing short club for four years now and as far as I recall a 1♣ contract has never given us a bad score, except for a couple of cases in which we missed 3NT with 19+5 HCPs, but that's unrelated to the short club.

Part of the story is that we play this response scheme:
1♦ 4+ hearts 4+HCPs
1♥ 4+ spades 4+HCPs
1♠ 3+ diamonds bal 6+ HCPs OR 6+ diamonds 6-9 HCPs
1NT 6+ diamonds 0-5 HCPs OR 5+ diamonds 10+ HCPs
2♦ 5 spades 4-5 hearts 0-5 HCPs
2♥/♠ 6+ hearts/spades 0-5 HCPs

This allows us to respond with most weak hands with less than four clubs.

Note that (at least in the Netherlands, the laws may be different in other countries) the opponents are allowed to use any defense against a short-club opening.

[sceptic]

Quote

Why dont you open 23+ hands with 2c ?

23+ or 4 losers hands I dont like to open 2club if they are 2 or 3 suits as I find it very hard to bid, hence the discussion about 1club and whether it should be forcing, so I avoid a pass out in this situation

[sceptic]

realising that 1Diam 1heart and 1spade can be passed out also, it is the minor 1 club openning I am concerned with

[Fluffy]

sceptic, on Jan 3 2005, 01:24 PM, said:

Quote

Why dont you open 23+ hands with 2c ?

23+ or 4 losers hands I dont like to open 2club if they are 2 or 3 suits as I find it very hard to bid

And you are right

But remember 2/3 suiters are never opener 1♣, you always have a 4 card ♦ or a 5 card in a suit that isn't clubs and you open there.

The only problem comes when you open 1♣ with 7-5 or something like, nevermind, since 1♣ wont' ever be passed out by oppoennets.

So all in all playing short ♣ is ok, but you don't have to play it forcing, you get nothing doing it.