[Free]

Perhaps I'm playing too much MP, but I'd bid 2♦...

[Flame]

This thread will help me explaning the 2 level overcall to some friends in israel. sadly here most teacher teach an overcall at the 2 level is 10-15 hcp, whith 16 you should double, and as those friends are aggresive they streatch it up abit and last week iv seen i 5 card 6 hcp 2c overcall.

[Chamaco]

I think that passing when one has opening values often backfires, and is at least as dangerous than marginal 2-level overcalls.

The point is, the old motto that "with a good hand and unclear bid, do not rush, you'll be able to show your strength later" often does not hold in modern bidding, when people open and respond on nothing:
either the opponents raise the bidding (say using a forcing NT), or, say, bidding comes back to you in the balancing seat, and when you bid your pard does not know whether you are balancing with a full opening or with a marginal hand (result = missed games our side or pard fails to double their partscore).

Basically, once you passed once, it is often VERY hard to convince pard that you reallly have a good hand, so, with values, much better stretch to show them at the first round.

--

I definitely rule pass out, and the decision ranges netween 2D and double.
Both are dangerous, but so is passing, especially if opps are playing 1NT forcing and are light bidders.

I think that at White I might bid a marginal 2D, whilst at Red I would double, but I sure understand others who'd rather double than bid diamonds at white too.

[bearmum]

myfish, on Jan 8 2005, 05:44 PM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

RHO is the dealer and bid 1♠
and now it is your turn to bid.

well I am assuming that RHO was dealer I will overcall 2♦

HOWEVER if LHO was dealer and it was P P 1♠ THEN I am PASSING

[flytoox]

Jlall, on Jan 11 2005, 01:43 AM, said:

Well Fred... I owe you a beer Bob said its a brutal problem and that he would X. He said against Roth/Stone he would pass.

Justin, did you ask him why he dbl rather than overcall 2D?

Thanks.

Hongjun

[helene_t]

If playing equal level conversion I would double. Otherwise 2♦ nonvul and pass vul.

[junyi_zhu]

myfish, on Jan 8 2005, 04:44 AM, said:

Scoring: IMP

---

RHO is the dealer and bid 1♠
and now it is your turn to bid.

I'd double if I play equal level conversion.
Otherwise, I'd bid 2D, when white. Also, when white, 1NT might also be a choice if I play white 1NT overcall as 14-17 and don't play equal level conversion.
When red, I'd still double if I play equal level conversion. However, I'd pass if I don't.
I don't balance much and I don't expect partner to balance much. So I have to take earlier actions. Actually 2D overcall is way more safer than 1S p 2S p p 3D. This hand
is marginal because I miss DT and CJ8 isn't good. If you give me DT, I'd overcall 2D with greater confidence; if you give me SJ, I'd overcall 1NT without a second thought.

[fred]

I asked a few other leading American players what they thought of this problem. Although none of these people are as accomplished as Zia or Hamman, they are all people whose bidding judgment I respect and they have all won several ACBL National Championship events.

Marc Jacobus prefers DBL, but didn't hate either 2D or Pass.

Brad Moss (my regular partner) liked 2D, but when we talked about the problem some more, he started to like DBL more and more. Brad hated Pass (which does not surprise me since he is one of the most agressive bidders I know - at least among successful players I mean).

Russ Ekeblad liked Pass, didn't mind DBL, and hated 2D.

I strongly suspect that if I increased the sample size of my survey that there would be plenty of great players who would prefer each of the 3 options.

To me the only thing that this demonstrates is:

Bridge is hard game and people who claim that there are clearly right or wrong answers to close judgment calls have a lot to learn (and probably won't learn much until they open their minds to new possibilities).

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[han]

It is hard not to be influenced by the opinions of all these great players. Here are my original thoughts:

2D: this is my least favorite of the three, I don't think I'd ever bid it.

Dbl: It seems to me that equal level conversion is important for this hand. Without it, I would never double. Fortunately all my partners play it. My shape is quite far from perfect, but I do have something extra and given that I have only three hearts, they are quite good. I have an easy call over all of partner's 2-level responses, but I'm guessing over 3-level responses.

Pass: I would avoid passing with 14 pts when there is a reasonable alternative. I think the double is just reasonable enough.

[inquiry]

Hannie, on Jan 11 2005, 08:20 PM, said:

It is hard not to be influenced by the opinions of all these great players. Here are my original thoughts:

2D: this is my least favorite of the three, I don't think I'd ever bid it.

Dbl: It seems to me that equal level conversion is important for this hand. Without it, I would never double. Fortunately all my partners play it. My shape is quite far from perfect, but I do have something extra and given that I have only three hearts, they are quite good. I have an easy call over all of partner's 2-level responses, but I'm guessing over 3-level responses.

Pass: I would avoid passing with 14 pts when there is a reasonable alternative. I think the double is just reasonable enough.

Gee... i can't get excited about double playing equal level conversion. Let's imagine a couple of auctions...

(1♠)-dbl-(pass)-2♣
(Pass) - 2♦- (Pass)-2♥... how do you like that so far?

(1♠)-dbl-(pass)-3♣
(Pass) - 3♦- (Pass)-3♥... how do you like that so far?

in both of these auctions, your pull of clubs (equal level conversion) shows the read suit. We both know that you are now in 3-3 fit, for partner would probably start with hearts with four.

I don't mind double, I guess that is probably the best. Partner might pass, partner might bid Nt, partner might bid hearts, partner might bid diamonds. All those are good things. But if partner bids clubs, you have lost your gamble with your double (all the other options but clubs is good for you). If i double with this hand, I would pass 2c or 3c bid by partner... and paying the piper if we missed our diamond fit.

Having said that, i would still double with this hand.

[han]

Hmm, interesting.

[fred]

I don't play "equal level conversion" myself, but a lot of very good players do.

Last night I asked a few other North American Champions what they thought. These people are all on my bowling team and we tend to drink a lot of beer on our bowling nights, but I suspect their answers would be the same if they had been completely sober

Drew Casen: DBL, but I play equal level conversion, I think it is close between DBL and Pass. I would never bid 2D.

Marinesa Letizia & Harold Lilie: Pass. Both felt pretty strongly about it, but I sensed that both came around a bit to accepting DBL as OK when I asked them this question:

You both play Precision and open all 11 point hands and almost never pass when your partner opens the bidding. If you were playing against yourself would you really want to be passing a 14 HCP hand (and thereby more or less give up on getting to game) if there was a reasonable way to enter the auction?

Of course they both answered "no" to this question. I did not make an effort to convince them that either 2D or DBL was "reasonable" on the actual hand (the key word in my question). Deciding if these calls are reasonable or not is a matter of judgment.

In my view, who your opponents are is at least as important as who your partner is as far as this problem is concerned. Playing against Meckstroth and Rodwell, I would consider it suicidal to Pass with this hand (because it is so likely that you will be stolen from if you do). That is one of the reasons these guys are such a great pair - they force you to change your style if you want to have a chance to beat them and most people don't play nearly as well as they are capable of when they are playing "out of their element".

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[flytoox]

Dear Fred,
Could you please explain why would they(or you) consider double? Isnt the shape of this hand not suitable for dbl? This hand wont play well in possible 4-3 heart fit, right?
Any instructions are apperciated.
Thanks in advance.
Hongjun

[fred]

flytoox, on Jan 12 2005, 11:48 PM, said:

Dear Fred,
  Could you please explain why would they(or you) consider double? Isnt the shape of this hand not suitable for dbl? This hand wont play well in possible 4-3 heart fit, right?
  Any instructions are apperciated.
  Thanks in advance.
  Hongjun

Nobody likes to double with a hand like this. The people who prefer double to the other choices see it as a least of evils. All the choices have serious risks associated with them. Here are the main risks of each of the 3 choices:

Pass - you risk never getting into the auction at all or getting into the auction via a balance and missing a good game contract.

2D - overcalling at the 2 level on a weakish 5-card suit, especially with xxx in the opponent's suit, risks suffering a large penalty or playing in diamonds when you would be better off somewhere else.

Double - the primary risk in my view is not that you hold 3 hearts, it is that you have only 2 clubs. You might end up playing in 2C on a 4-2 fit or partner might bid clubs at a higher level in a competitive auction expecting you to have more than Jx in support.

This is certainly not a great hand for playing a 4-3 heart fit, but I don't think it is an awful hand either. In general, the most important factor in determining if a 4-3 fit will be playable is trump quality and your strong 3-card holding suggests that trump quality will usually not be an issue if partner ends up declaring a 4-3 heart fit. Of course partner could have xxxx in hearts, but hearts might still play OK and besides, why be so pessimestic? Maybe he has Q10xx of hearts, maybe he has 5 hearts, maybe he has less than 3 hearts, and maybe sometimes when he has 4 hearts you won't end up playing in that suit.

Those who prefer double evidently think that the risk/reward ratio of that call is better than that of either pass or 2D. It think they could easily be right.

Hope this helps.

Fred Gitelman
Bridge Base Inc.
www.bridgebase.com

[the hog]

This is good thread, and I find it very interesting to see who would double on this hand. I will guarantee that Klinger and Marston would also both double - Klinger plays equal level conversion and Marston does not, but both are very aggressive in coming into the auction.

Fred, I assume you would rule out any action at all if we were vulnerable, even if all vul.

Ron

[flytoox]

Thanks very much, Fred.

Regards

Hongjun

[HeartA]

There are a few advantages if I overcall with 2♦.

1) pd may have ♦ support and ♠ stopper(s) and some cards (not necessarily honors) in ♣ so that we have an easy 9 (or 10 tricks) for 3NT. you don't need that much from pd to make 3N.
2) opps have ♦ Axx and Jxx, and both of them might think they don't enough stoppers to play 3NT and end up 5-2 or 4-3 fit major games and went down. Or they want to try NT, and pd leads DT, DJ on dummy. and suddenly 3N was in danger. To prevent you from get an entry to cash diamonds, they finesse the wrong side and you got entry (via H) anyway.
3) opps have ♦ Axxx and Jx (or Ax opposite Jxxx) they were unwilling to dble you for penalty though you get down 2.
4) ...

[hrothgar]

Must admit, at the start of this thread I was in the pass camp.
I'm starting to come arround to the "Double" point of view...

See, it can happen. Rare as it is, I do, on occasion, change my mind...

[myfish]

thank you Fred and the others for the nice explanation