[Vampyr]

GreenMan, on 2013-October-15, 09:47, said:

Kickstarter is explicitly for creative projects. ("A project is something with a clear end, like making an album, a film, or a new game. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced as a result.") What is the creative element of vugraph, given that it's been in existence for decades?

What benefits might contributors receive?

It seems certain they won't receive a return on their investment.

[hrothgar]

GreenMan, on 2013-October-15, 09:47, said:

Kickstarter is explicitly for creative projects. ("A project is something with a clear end, like making an album, a film, or a new game. A project will eventually be completed, and something will be produced as a result.") What is the creative element of vugraph, given that it's been in existence for decades?

What benefits might contributors receive?

The creative element of an individual Vugraph encompasses

1. The real time stream of bids made, cards played, etc.
2. Commentary associated with the same
3. Records of the same

If I were creating a set of SWAG for contributors, I'd focused on something like

The chance to play 24 boards partnering player "X"
The chance to play an ACBL online event with player Y
Having player Z analyze your performance in an online tournament and make suggestions

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2013-October-15, 09:59, said:

The creative element of an individual Vugraph encompasses

1. The real time stream of bids made, cards played, etc.
2. Commentary associated with the same
3. Records of the same

I think you're stretching.

1. The bids and plays are creative on the part of the players. The real-time stream is just a replay of it - the Vugraph operator isn't being creative.

2. The commentary is creative on the part of the commentators, not the Vugraph operator; maybe you could use this as a justification if we were talking about paying commentators.

3. The record isn't creative at all -- the Supreme Court ruled that telephone directories are not subject to copyright because they're just a factual record.

If we didn't already have software for presenting Vugraphs, you could use Kickstarter to fund a project to develop the application. But that's not necessary now.

[hrothgar]

barmar, on 2013-October-15, 10:28, said:

I think you're stretching.

1. The bids and plays are creative on the part of the players. The real-time stream is just a replay of it - the Vugraph operator isn't being creative.

2. The commentary is creative on the part of the commentators, not the Vugraph operator; maybe you could use this as a justification if we were talking about paying commentators.

3. The record isn't creative at all -- the Supreme Court ruled that telephone directories are not subject to copyright because they're just a factual record.

If we didn't already have software for presenting Vugraphs, you could use Kickstarter to fund a project to develop the application. But that's not necessary now.

Ultimately, neither of our opinions matter a damn. (Nor do dubious analogies regarding copyright or letter splitting about who is/is not being creative.)

This is one of those cases where the proof is in the pudding.
The only way to prove this is to see whether Kickstarter will accept this as a project.
Either they will or they won't. Either way, we have an answer.

Its not worth my time to go and launch such an effort, however, if someone is willing to bet me sufficient money that they won't, I'll be happy to prove you wrong.

[jallerton]

paulg, on 2013-October-15, 05:06, said:

Generally I think the major beneficiaries from vugraph coverage are the organisers, BBO and the BBO audience. I wouldn't have said the players but perhaps they are a distant fourth.

In terms of the English Premier League, the value to BBO and the BBO audience is quite small as the event does not have many star names. As long as any vugraph is on BBO is happy and the audiences for the league drop significantly when run alongside the Polish or Swedish equivalent.

I think the principal values of the broadcast are that it promotes the EBU (particularly at a time when it is starting BBO tournaments), helps the selectors see more of the event and provides valuable experience for some players of playing on vugraph.

So you might hope that the EBU funds this from its marketing and international budgets.

I agree with most of this. I believe that it was the EBU Selection Committee (before Andy's time there) which instigated having this particular event on BBO, in order to enable the selectors to watch. This is the modern equivalent of selectors turning up at trials and kibitzing at the table.

In order to answer the opening poster's question, we need to consider:

1. Why do people volunteer to operate vugraph? I suspect that very few make a living out of it.
2. Would paying vugraph operators encourage more people to participate? If so, how much would people generally need to be paid to make a difference?

[mr1303]

As someone who does volunteer to operate vugraph, I feel pretty well placed to answer Jeffrey's questions.

1) I do it because I enjoy the equivalent of being on bridge TV. I enjoy being able to explain what's going on at the table using my general bridge knowledge and imparting that on to a watching audience. As a commentator, you're always a little bid in the dark as to what is actually going on. Who's thinking, what they might be thinking about etc. As an operator, you have much more information.

Having said that, I enjoy this for a few hours. Doing it for 120 boards over a weekend is too much for me. I don't enjoy it *that* much.

2) The concept of introducing payment is purely to increase the number of people willing to operate vugraph. Which links in to the second part of my answer to 1.

I did not like having to announce to the audience that the last match could not be shown. I received a number of questions wanting to know (not unreasonably) why the match couldn't be shown.

As it was, when the e-mail came around asking for volunteers, I said I could happily do Saturday, but I was very pressed for time on the Sunday, as I had paid work of my own to go to back in Bristol, some 120 miles away.

During the vugraph commentary, there was a little discussion amongst the commentators about payment for vugraph operators. A number of spectators told me (via private chat) that they pay their operators a small fee for their services, and as a result they never seem to be short for volunteers. They usually pick students from the local universities (which, if they have a bridge club, would be so much better). Around $2-3 US dollars a board seems to be the going rate. This would mean that an operator could earn about $120 a day - quite good money for a student.

[barmar]

mr1303, on 2013-October-17, 03:12, said:

Having said that, I enjoy this for a few hours. Doing it for 120 boards over a weekend is too much for me. I don't enjoy it *that* much.

Same here. I've never gone to a tournament just to operate vugraph. I go to NABCs to play, but I usually carve out one day to operate vugraph.

[DJNeill]

Hi all,
I'm one of those weird ones that loves bridge and commentating so much that I would probably go to an NABC just to do a lot vugraph in a big event I was paid room/travel and had a few VL days saved up. I mean it's Nationals . Big events, big vugraph audiences, famous players, cool systems. And while I'm not modest, I'm really awesome at it.

Thanks,
Dan

[barmar]

DJNeill, on 2013-October-17, 08:32, said:

Hi all,
I'm one of those weird ones that loves bridge and commentating so much that I would probably go to an NABC just to do a lot vugraph in a big event I was paid room/travel and had a few VL days saved up. I mean it's Nationals .

What about the Team Trials and USBC, where they only have the big events? That's where Jan needs people who are really into vugraph operating, since there's no opportunity for you to play.

[JanM]

My experience has been that providing some compensation, even the very small amount we do for ACBL & USBF events makes it a little easier to recruit operators. Providing travel and a room, which I was able to do for a few experienced operators for this year's USBCs definitely made it easier. The USBC is the Team Trials, by the way - USBF holds the United States Bridge Championship, which chooses the US teams for the Open World Championships and the Women's & Senior USBCs, which choose teams for the Women's & Senior World Championships. Even with travel and room expenses, though, I couldn't persuade enough experienced operators to come to Orlando for this years Women's & Seniors events (which were held at the same time).

No one is going to do it for the money or the "free trip" and no one can earn a living at it. It's a lot of work being a Vugraph operator (it always amuses me when people volunteer thinking it will be trivial to hear their comments after the session). It's also a wonderful way to learn and a way to give back to the people who have helped entertain and enlighten you over the years.

Jeffrey asks how much people would need to be paid to make a difference. I think the answer is "it depends." The more you are able to pay, the more people it will matter to. The amount that we pay now matters to a few of our younger players. It's not enough to recruit caddies to become Vugraph operators (they can make more as caddies because the sessions are shorter). But it is enough to recruit someone who isn't playing and would otherwise kibbitz a friend. The money is more important to students than to those of us who are employed or retired. The good news is that students are usually excellent operators (younger so more computer literate and also with better eyesight). The bad news is that they graduate and become employed and you can no longer persuade them to come be operators .

[cherdano]

JanM, on 2013-October-17, 10:04, said:

The bad news is that they graduate and become employed and you can no longer persuade them to come be operators .

Don't worry too much, the governments (both in the US and the UK) seem to be working on reducing that sort of problem...

[mycroft]

For the players who can make it to every Nationals, and can carve out vacation time to go to the team trials as well and not play, I would guess that the amount of money you can provide for payment is minimal. I certainly don't do TD work for the money, for instance (not that I don't *take* the money). For these people, a "something" might be of more worth than the cash, even if of the same value.

For me, for instance, a small "engraved business card" labelled vugraph operator <event> <name> and a nice bottle of Scotch that I couldn't find justification to buy for myself, but would happily accept, would be worth more than the $120-for-three-sessions it costs.

That, of course, requires more work by the coordinator, both in doing the "things" and in working out what "somethings" would be of interest to the operators.

[DJNeill]

barmar, on 2013-October-17, 09:07, said:

What about the Team Trials and USBC, where they only have the big events? That's where Jan needs people who are really into vugraph operating, since there's no opportunity for you to play.

The fact I'm not playing has little to do with it. It would be nice to have a rotation available so I could do like 3 out of 4 sessions, letting me do whatever or kibitz whomever the other quarter.

Thanks,
Dan

[gnasher]

mycroft, on 2013-October-17, 10:27, said:

For the players who can make it to every Nationals, and can carve out vacation time to go to the team trials as well and not play, I would guess that the amount of money you can provide for payment is minimal. I certainly don't do TD work for the money, for instance (not that I don't *take* the money). For these people, a "something" might be of more worth than the cash, even if of the same value.

For me, for instance, a small "engraved business card" labelled vugraph operator <event> <name> and a nice bottle of Scotch that I couldn't find justification to buy for myself, but would happily accept, would be worth more than the $120-for-three-sessions it costs.

That, of course, requires more work by the coordinator, both in doing the "things" and in working out what "somethings" would be of interest to the operators.

Perhaps the ACBL and USBF should offer masterpoints to Vugraph operators?

[bidule5]

paulg, on 2013-October-15, 07:57, said:

Aside perhaps from Phil King, Burn, you and I, does anyone else consider looking at the archives?

I do and I even post archives:

http://vugraph-archive.comuv.com/

[Rossoneri]

It varies for tournament organisers, but I recall being compensated in some form the last few times I did vugraph.

[wank]

i was under the impression the ebu used to pay £1 per board - i think i'm thinking of the time there was a playoff during the brighton week for which team would represent england in the euros.

[MickyB]

wank, on 2013-December-05, 02:56, said:

i was under the impression the ebu used to pay £1 per board - i think i'm thinking of the time there was a playoff during the brighton week for which team would represent england in the euros.

Yup, same for the England vs Netherlands practice match in Brighton. Both are going back a few years now.