[32519]

Deleted

[onoway]

32519. There are other threads more in keeping with your last posts, and it would be nice if you put such posts there, or start your own, rather than trying to hijack this thread. Thanks

[onoway]

 Fluffy, on 2014-February-18, 02:00, said:

I think you overestimate the impact of this event, for 99% of the people who lived in the country in europe it didn't make much of a difference. For people in Asia and other continents it didn't change much either. The most significant part of discovering amrica was sending virus to america and killing zounds of natives.

Don't underestimate the impact of the importation to Europe of tobacco and chocolate (potatoes already mentioned).Where would we be without chocolate!! Still doesn't make my short list though.

The concept/beginning of written language was one that seems as though it ought to be up there.

[Cyberyeti]

 onoway, on 2014-February-18, 13:31, said:

Don't underestimate the impact of the importation to Europe of tobacco and chocolate (potatoes already mentioned).Where would we be without chocolate!! Still doesn't make my short list though.

Tomatoes also IIRC.

[ArtK78]

David Brenner used to do a routine in which one caveman was speaking to another caveman. "See that animal over there?" said one, pointing at a cow. "Whatever comes out of those things underneath, I am going to drink!"

[barmar]

I'd say:

Development of spoken language
Invention of written language
Agriculture

[onoway]

 barmar, on 2014-February-18, 15:25, said:

I'd say:

Development of spoken language
Invention of written language
Agriculture

That brings up an interesting question.

Certainly spoken language in human terms is unique to humans but that would seem to be because of our physical characteristics. I would definitely argue that most if not all animals have "spoken" language in their terms according to their physical characteristics, so "spoken " language is not really a human acomplishment. Many species have vocalizations at a level which is impossible for humans to hear. I would suggest that some sort of communication between members of a species is pretty much essential if the species is to survive,(aside from those who reproduce asexually) and the more complex the social structure of the creature, the more likely it is to have "spoken" language in its terms.

There are interesting incidents like the gorilla who was given access to an outside area for the first time in many years. She looked then signed "for me?" When told yes, she started to go out, then turned back and signed "thank you". This could not be taught to a creature who did not normally have a degree of sophistication in communication to start out with, but we have no idea what those gorilla noises mean. I'm pretty sure you couldn't teach a jellyfish to express gratitude appropriately or even at all, even if you did find a way to establish basic communication with it.

There is also a video about a whale rescue where the whale lay quiet in the water without struggling when the guy chewed at the netting with a penknife and when finally freed, gave a long display of whale acrobatics before heading back out to sea. It might have been simply exercising sore and stiff muscles, or it may have been, like a little girl watching said, "she's saying thank you." Certainly whale and dolphin vocalisations are considered by scientists to be "language".

At some point I read some very interesting studies done with either crows or ravens, (it was a while back) and the conclusions established that they also have "spoken" language in that they were definitely communicating through vocalization.

Written language would seem to be a whole different thing, and specific to humans. I don't count such things as bears scratching on trees to establish territory as written language, though humans might have started out with something of the sort.

[blackshoe]

The most important single event in human history was the mutiny on board Dahak, an Utu class Planetoid of the Fourth Imperium, and the subsequent stranding of his crew on the planet Earth, some 50,000 years ago. See the story Mutineer's Moon, by David Weber.

To paraphrase Heinlein, this is no sillier than any other theory, and it might even be true.

[Zelandakh]

Three most important events in history:

1. creation of the universe
2. beginning of life on Earth (arguable in a galactic context but quite important for us)
3. global warming (could not resist (83 pages can't be wrong))

The most important event in human history is clearly the development of early man from apes. Assuming this does not count,

1. development of homo sapians and subsequent eradication of the Neanderthal
2. creation of writing
3. domestication of animals


Looking back, it seems like my thoughts are along the same lines as Barry here.

[barmar]

 onoway, on 2014-February-18, 18:11, said:

That brings up an interesting question.

Certainly spoken language in human terms is unique to humans but that would seem to be because of our physical characteristics. I would definitely argue that most if not all animals have "spoken" language in their terms according to their physical characteristics, so "spoken " language is not really a human acomplishment. Many species have vocalizations at a level which is impossible for humans to hear. I would suggest that some sort of communication between members of a species is pretty much essential if the species is to survive,(aside from those who reproduce asexually) and the more complex the social structure of the creature, the more likely it is to have "spoken" language in its terms.

Many other species make sounds that have meanings (there's an article in the latest Scientific American about chickens, whose language is more complex than we previously thought), but there's a qualitative difference between what they do and what we do. It's closely tied to the unique way that (we think) we think about the world.

[phil_20686]

The question is very fuzzy in its nature, but i definitely agree with Mikeh that technical knowledge and innovation doesnt really cut it, as its usually the result of a long process.

(1) Crucification of Christ/Founding of christiantity. - a similar argument could be made for most of the worlds major religion, most of them have influenced potlitcs, ethics and people in their sphere of influence for almost an inconceivably long time. But hey, christianity is the biggest.
(2) The death of Alexander the Great - dying at 33, having conquered an empire but not yet consolidated it, insured that would fall apart. If it hadn't what would have happened? Who can say.
(3) Rome refuses to speak to Punic Envoys following the disaster at Canae. This introduced the concept of total war, when a war would no longer be decided by treaty, but but the complete destruction of your enemies ability to make war and unconditional surrender. It established the Roman attitude to conflict, and was completely new in that era, when it was expected that you might opportunistically seize some land and then negotiate a settlement. Rome rejected this idea, and believed that war should continue until you had completely destroyed your enemy as a future threat. This was really the turning point in the Punic Wars, Hannible could never take Rome as it was too heavily fortified, it was just expected that when you had obliterated their armies they would wish to come to terms. Hannibal by this stage had won a dozen stunning victories, and depleted the male population of Rome by a third, and still they showed no interest in negotiation. Amazing.

A close runner up: 1088 University of Bologna is founded. The idea of a place just for learning and studying and thinking-supported by the state-was really a new idea (though they had places to teach always), and probably did much to advance the technological progress of the west by turning thought into a collaborative exercise, and bringing together great minds so they could benefit from one another's insights. This at a time when paper and writing was still difficult, and books were rare.

[Vampyr]

 phil_20686, on 2014-February-19, 11:41, said:

(1) Crucification of Christ/Founding of christiantity. - a similar argument could be made for most of the worlds major religion, most of them have influenced potlitcs, ethics and people in their sphere of influence for almost an inconceivably long time. But hey, christianity is the biggest.

Also Christianity has probably had the biggest influence on non-adherents (mainly in terms of killing them). Similarly, of course, conflicts between different Christian sects has had a significant impact on the course of history.

[hrothgar]

FWIW, I have long suspected that even relatively minor changes to the continuum would ripple across the entire world relatively quickly.

Consider that there are millions of sperm competing to fertilize a given egg.
I'd guess that even the tiniest difference would probably cause a different outcome in the fertilization process.

About half the time, the resulting time the resulting child would be of the opposite sex.
Even if the resulting children were the same sex, there's significant differences between brothers.
Not to mention, how often miscarriages do/do not happen.

Even relatively "insignificant" changes would ripple across land masses.

Given all the evidence how agriculture in one region can impact other land masses, its not hard to image these changes hoping across the Atlantic/Pacific
(As a practical example, there is some evidence that the Little Ice Age in Europe was partially a result of burning forests in North and South America)

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2014-February-19, 12:54, said:

Also Christianity has probably had the biggest influence on non-adherents (mainly in terms of killing them). Similarly, of course, conflicts between different Christian sects has had a significant impact on the course of history.

Sorry, but you’re fingering the wrong religion.

But now that you have, don’t limit this to Christian sects. Include all religions. The Jews killed their own Messiah (and that of the entire human population). Not satisfied, they started killing off their own people who did accept Yehoshua as the Messiah (see Acts chapters 1 to 9), eventually succeeding in driving their own Elohim right out of the country, first from Jerusalem and then from the whole of Israel. But they could not stop the good news from spreading. As more and more non-Jews started turning to their Elohim and accepting the message of salvation, they set out on a determined campaign to stop the message from spreading, hounding Paul everywhere he went preaching Yahweh’s Way of Salvation. The New Covenant records plenty of the beatings, imprisonments, false accusations and assassination attempts upon Paul’s life, (nearly) all at the hands of Jews. I have no idea who was involved or how they managed to do it, but the masterstroke was delivered when, in collaboration with the Roman Catholic Church of they day, they managed to establish a new religion called “Christianity.” The word does not appear in the original books and letters making up the New Covenant. Ultimately there can (and will be) only one “religion,” and only one god, the Elohim of the Jews.

The rise of Islam around AD 600 has questions of its own. The Jews and the Arabs have the same founding father, Abraham. The beginning of both nations can be traced back to the book of Genesis. Anyone with even the tiniest knowledge of Islam can see they also claim Abraham as the founder of their nation. Hostility between the Jews and the Arabs continues to this day. The Book of Revelation records the battle of Armageddon. Who do you think is involved? Its neither the Russians or the Chinese as many teach. It’s the Jews and the Arabs. The anger of the Arabs will rise to new levels when they find out the real truth. Yehoshua’s death on the cross was Yahweh’s way of reconciling the entire human race back to himself at the price of the death of one person only. Today people across the globe continue dying in the name of religion. We have Islam suicide bombers. We have the Sunnis and the Shiites at each others throats. We have Christianity and Islam killing each other off in places like Nigeria. Christians are killed in many Arab countries. So now, because of what happened during the early years during and after Yehoshua’s ministry, death and resurrection, we have all sorts of religions (and sects within the same religion as per your post here) claiming their god is the true god and superior to every other god. Anyone who fails to tow the line often gets killed.

Let me say it again: Ultimately there can (and will be) only one “religion,” and only one god, the Elohim of the Jews.

[Vampyr]

 32519, on 2014-February-19, 22:28, said:

Sorry, but you’re fingering the wrong religion.

But now that you have, don’t limit this to Christian sects. Include all religions.

No, as far as impact on human history is concerned, the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, wars between Catholics and Protestants (particularly in England) the ghettoisation of Jews throughout Europe, and the Puritans going to America to practise their own brand of religious persecution combine to make a pretty big impact on history, not to mention other effects of Christianity not involving murder (and of course making people live in a ghetto is not murdering them directly, but the often very poor living conditions had a big impact on people's health and longevity.)

So if it is an event, it is the crucifixion of Jesus that started it all.

[mike777]

 Vampyr, on 2014-February-19, 23:46, said:

No, as far as impact on human history is concerned, the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition, wars between Catholics and Protestants (particularly in England) the ghettoisation of Jews throughout Europe, and the Puritans going to America to practise their own brand of religious persecution combine to make a pretty big impact on history, not to mention other effects of Christianity not involving murder (and of course making people live in a ghetto is not murdering them directly, but the often very poor living conditions had a big impact on people's health and longevity.)

So if it is an event, it is the crucifixion of Jesus that started it all.

Not plato or aristoltle

granted I think that Jesus guy thought he was God with a capital G not small g

so you may have a point.

[barmar]

 hrothgar, on 2014-February-19, 14:38, said:

FWIW, I have long suspected that even relatively minor changes to the continuum would ripple across the entire world relatively quickly.

While it's certainly possible that some butterfly flapping its wings could be in the answer to the question, it's futile trying to identify these "events". For the purposes of discussion, ignore chaos theory and just go for the big events.

[32519]

 Vampyr, on 2014-February-19, 23:46, said:

So if it is an event, it is the crucifixion of Jesus that started it all.

You are closer to the truth than what you could ever possibly imagine!

Here is a quiz for you to solve:

Who is/was ultimately responsible for Yehoshua’s death? Was it –
1. The chief priests, the scribes, and the elders of the Jews who were plotting all along to seize him and kill him?
2. Judas Iscariot who agreed to, and then later betrayed him?
3. The Roman cohort and officers sent from the chief priests, and the Pharisees, and the scribes, and the elders of the Jews who arrested him in the early hours of the morning when none of his followers were around to defend him?
4. Those who bore false testimony against him before Caiaphas where the scribes and the elders were also gathered?
5. The full Sanhedrin who sat at sunrise and condemned him to death on a charge of blasphemy?
6. The chief priests, who, as they led Yehoshua away, between the Hall of Hewn Stone (the part of the temple complex where the Sanhedrin met) and the Antonia Fortress (Pilate’s residence during the Passover Feast), changed the charge of blasphemy to this, "We found this man subverting our nation and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, and saying that he himself is anointed as king."
7. The chief priests and elders who stirred up the crowds to have Bar-Abbas (son of Abba) released and Yehoshua crucified?
8. Pilate, who caved in under the pressure, and met the demands of the people shouting before him?
9. The Roman soldiers who drove in the nails which fastened him to the cross?
10. All of the above?
11. None of the above?

(scroll down for the answer)















If your answer was 11, “None of the above,” you answered correctly. The Elohim of the Jews sacrificed his younger son, Yehoshua, to bear upon him the transgression (note the singular) of his older son, Adam. Adam only had one restriction placed upon him, “don’t eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” Unable to uphold that one restriction resulted in the deplorable state of the world we live in now. If you’re wondering about Adam being a son of the Elohim of the Jews, read Yehoshua’s genealogy in Luke 3.

Amazingly, the Jews as a nation are trying to uphold a total of 613 laws which they have identified from the writings of Moses. That is utterly impossible to do. Yahweh knows it and they know it too. But Yahweh, in his merciful kindness, is in the process of reconciling fallen mankind back to himself (See 2 Corinthians 5 verse 19). Through sacrificing Yehoshua, Yahweh has cancelled the 613 laws, reducing them back to one again. All that is required now is to accept that Yehoshua has already paid the penalty for every transgression that all of us have committed. Yehoshua is Yahweh’s Way of Salvation, which is also the meaning of his name. That’s it folks! We are back to only one requirement again.

[Trinidad]

The opening of Pandora's box.

Rik

[Vampyr]

325, the OP started this thread to discuss an issue he or she was interested in. He asked you if you would be kind enough to post this religious stuff in another thread. Yet this is the second screed you have posted since he made that request. Can you not respect others' wishes?