[hotShot]

blackshoe, on 2014-May-21, 10:12, said:

I really, really, hate to pass out a hand at the one level, so my first inclination was to double. Then I read the comments, and became convinced that pass is right. It might be interesting to run a sim, though, to see how often pass might work out well.

I think it is the wrong question, the right question is how often do you fail bidding.
Fact is you don't have a fit and you don't have a long suit qualifying as source of tricks.
East and North 11 HCP are unequally divided and ♥ are 3-3 that is lucky and antipercentage.

[whereagles]

blackshoe, on 2014-May-21, 10:12, said:

It might be interesting to run a sim, though, to see how often pass might work out well.

To do the sim, you have to define what "work out well" means...

[MrAce]

hotShot, on 2014-May-21, 11:04, said:

I think it is the wrong question, the right question is how often do you fail bidding.
Fact is you don't have a fit and you don't have a long suit qualifying as source of tricks.
East and North 11 HCP are unequally divided and ♥ are 3-3 that is lucky and antipercentage.

I don't know why lately in forums I see more and more (only in BBF) long suit-source of tricks kinda requirements for NT hands. NT means NT. It shows a balanced hand with an assigned range to it, simple as it is.

This hand should be downgraded to pass even though it has a long suit. The reason to pass is, there is a guy sitting with 5 spades behind our 5 card spades and that guy is also holding the most of remaining hcps behind us. In addition to not being able to have a bid to show this 15-17 balanced hcp at 1 level.

[jdgalt]

I double, not so much in the hope of a game (the distribution screams "misfit!") as of pushing the opps to 2 or 3, which I can double for business.

[uriah]

I'm not saying it's right, but to the people above who say they want to bid 1NT, why don't you do it anyway? Sure, you won't find a game by massively understating the strength of your hand, but you won't get there by passing either.

[hotShot]

uriah, on 2014-May-22, 07:18, said:

I'm not saying it's right, but to the people above who say they want to bid 1NT, why don't you do it anyway? Sure, you won't find a game by massively understating the strength of your hand, but you won't get there by passing either.

Just exchange the East and North hand, the layout is equally likely, and you will go down on some leads.

---

While playing 1♠ West can only gain 80 and might go down on a ♥ lead.

---

[aguahombre]

Hey, Hotshot, exchange E & N hands, and we don't have this thread at all.

[WellSpyder]

hotShot, on 2014-May-22, 07:53, said:

Just exchange the East and North hand, the layout is equally likely, and you will go down on some leads.

Is it normal to pass partner's opening 1♠ with that hand? I might consider it playing Precision, but I didn't see any indication in the OP that opponents were playing limited opening bids.

[NickRW]

Frustrating as it is, I've learnt that bidding in this sort of situation is (mostly) more trouble than it is worth.

If lefty has opened mega-light and you're getting a bottom this time, c'est la vie.

Nick

[Zelandakh]

Although I am reluctant to suggest doubling looking at the list os passers and after seeing all the hands, one thing I remember seeing a long while back was some statistics that it is strongly negative to pass at the one level with 17 or more points regardless of how unappealing bidding appears. Unfortunately I have not stored any link to that analysis - perhaps someone else remembers it? Since PK was amongst the passers, I wonder if he could take a look at his database for hands in which a 17 count passed out a 1 level opening bid with 17+hcp and post the results if there are not too many (or limit the OB to 1M if there are a lot). I would find this output very interesting.

[NickRW]

Zelandakh, on 2014-May-23, 02:58, said:

Although I am reluctant to suggest doubling looking at the list os passers and after seeing all the hands, one thing I remember seeing a long while back was some statistics that it is strongly negative to pass at the one level with 17 or more points regardless of how unappealing bidding appears...

Fair comment. When I said I've found it mostly a waste of time bidding in these situations, it is not as if it happens every day that lefty opens your 5 card suit and you're stuck in 4th seat after 2 passes with a 17 count. My feeling may well be coloured by a load of 14, 15 and 16 point hands??!

Nick

[PhilKing]

Zelandakh, on 2014-May-23, 02:58, said:

Since PK was amongst the passers, I wonder if he could take a look at his database for hands in which a 17 count passed out a 1 level opening bid with 17+hcp and post the results if there are not too many (or limit the OB to 1M if there are a lot). I would find this output very interesting.

THe database is not really big enough for this kind of thing yet.

[Fluffy]

Wackojack, on 2014-May-21, 09:51, said:

At the time I was mildly critical of my partner, (wrongly I realise now). In teams however, the reward of a vulnerable game is so great that I think a double must be superior to pass.

If you plan to bid with similar hands in the future, agree with your partner that the bid is 2NT, not double.

[the hog]

Fluffy, on 2014-May-23, 15:07, said:

If you plan to bid with similar hands in the future, agree with your partner that the bid is 2NT, not double.

If you are going to play 2NT here as 16-17 you better bring a wallet full of money as well.

[Fluffy]

I don't know what you want the money for nor why you think I'd play 2NT as a stupid narrow suicide range. 2NT is 17-19 for everyone I know.

[Zelandakh]

Fluffy, on 2014-May-24, 11:42, said:

I don't know what you want the money for nor why you think I'd play 2NT as a stupid narrow suicide range. 2NT is 17-19 for everyone I know.

It is 19-21 for me and as far as I know a range of this nature is pretty standard in the UK. I do not know anyone that has the lower end of the range below 18. If it is different in Spain I am interested what your full ladder is.

[Fluffy]

11-14, 17-19, with 15-16 it is a big mess as you can only double and then pray. double +NT is 20-22

[aguahombre]

Fluffy, on 2014-May-24, 18:00, said:

11-14, 17-19, with 15-16 it is a big mess as you can only double and then pray. double +NT is 20-22

I think more common after particularly 1S is to suck it up and start with 12+-16 (eat the bad 11
and some 12's.) Eat this particular 17, and try balancing 2NT with 18-20. Double and then 2NT after the expected 2x advance ---holding some intermediate range---really sucks.

[Fluffy]

I also think this is one of the positions where MPs vs IMPs play an important role on system.