BBO Discussion Forums: What is standard for responder's reverse? - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

What is standard for responder's reverse? GF or 1RF?

Poll: Responder's Reverse, say 1C 1H; 2C 2S? (29 member(s) have cast votes)

What is standard for responder's reverse?

  1. Game Forcing (22 votes [75.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.86%

  2. One Round Force (3 votes [10.34%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.34%

  3. Depends on system (4 votes [13.79%])

    Percentage of vote: 13.79%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-15, 23:50

What is standard for responder's reverse?

Does this depend on system - some form of standard American or Acol or Precision?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#2 User is offline   mikeh 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 13,025
  • Joined: 2005-June-15
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Canada
  • Interests:Bridge, golf, wine (red), cooking, reading eclectically but insatiably, travelling, making bad posts.

Posted 2014-July-15, 23:54

I can't speak of acol, and I haven't played the current versions of precision, but my understanding has always been that in standard-based methods, responder's reverse is gf.
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
0

#3 User is offline   whereagles 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 14,900
  • Joined: 2004-May-11
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portugal
  • Interests:Everything!

Posted 2014-July-16, 01:37

Indeed. I know of no one playing it as non-GF.
0

#4 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2014-July-16, 01:50

 whereagles, on 2014-July-16, 01:37, said:

Indeed. I know of no one playing it as non-GF.

I play it as only a one-round force with a couple of my partners. We prefer to bid both suits in the natural order with something like a 4135 11-count. But I acknowledge that playing it as GF is standard.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
0

#5 User is offline   mcphee 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,512
  • Joined: 2003-February-16

Posted 2014-July-16, 02:08

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.
0

#6 User is offline   gordontd 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 4,485
  • Joined: 2009-July-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London

Posted 2014-July-16, 05:19

 mcphee, on 2014-July-16, 02:08, said:

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.

The question is about responders' reverses, not openers'.
Gordon Rainsford
London UK
1

#7 User is offline   lamford 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 6,446
  • Joined: 2007-October-15

Posted 2014-July-16, 06:59

 gordontd, on 2014-July-16, 05:19, said:

The question is about responders' reverses, not openers'.

I wondered why it was in Expert-Class bridge ...
I prefer to give the lawmakers credit for stating things for a reason - barmar
0

#8 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-16, 16:02

 lamford, on 2014-July-16, 06:59, said:

I wondered why it was in Expert-Class bridge ...


I wanted expert opinion. Maybe its the wrong place to get that ...
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#9 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-July-16, 17:09

Reversing into a suit Opener cannot have seems automatic as a game force, and might not even be a righteous suit.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#10 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-16, 17:34

What do you bid with

AQxx
KQJxx
xx(x)
x(x)

4531 or 4522

Make it 4531 if you would raise with 4522. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point AQJx or AQJxx or similar?
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#11 User is online   awm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,375
  • Joined: 2005-February-09
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Zurich, Switzerland

Posted 2014-July-16, 18:34

 Cascade, on 2014-July-16, 17:34, said:

What do you bid with

AQxx
KQJxx
xx(x)
x(x)

5431 or 5422

Make it 5431 if you would raise with 5422. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point AQJx or AQJxx or similar?


I assume you are giving me an invitational 4531 (in that order) opposite opener's 1...2 sequence. I'd bid 2NT. Sure it is conceivable that this wrong-sides our notrump contract, or that a 6-1 club fit is a better partial than 2NT. However, against this it becomes much easier to time out the auction when I have a game force hand, and surely this particular pattern with specifically nothing in diamonds is a rare beast. Partner will bid 3 on the way to game if he has three of them (in fact partner would have raised to 2 on three with a lot of unbalanced hands already) so no fear of missing a heart fit here.
Adam W. Meyerson
a.k.a. Appeal Without Merit
0

#12 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-July-16, 18:38

 Cascade, on 2014-July-16, 17:34, said:

What do you bid with

AQxx
KQJxx
xx(x)
x(x)

5431 or 5422

Make it 5431 if you would raise with 5422. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point AQJx or AQJxx or similar?

2D seems like a reasonable stall. 2NT with a diamond card sometimes.
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#13 User is offline   aguahombre 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 12,029
  • Joined: 2009-February-21
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:St. George, UT

Posted 2014-July-16, 18:39

dupe deleted
"Bidding Spades to show spades can work well." (Kenberg)
0

#14 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-16, 19:19

 awm, on 2014-July-16, 18:34, said:

I assume you are giving me an invitational 4531 (in that order) opposite opener's 1...2 sequence.


Yes thanks. I have corrected.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#15 User is offline   dboxley 

  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Full Members
  • Posts: 327
  • Joined: 2003-March-20
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indianapolis

Posted 2014-July-17, 05:55

 mcphee, on 2014-July-16, 02:08, said:

In the old days a reverse was considered game forcing. Then along came lebensohl, ingberman and it became more practical to respond with less values. For example partner opens 1C and you have a dismal collection, say Kxxxx Jxxx xxx x and respond 1S rather than let partner perhaps play a 3/1 C fit. In the old days many players passed that hand, indeed some still do today. As an example if partner responded a S and I held Jxx AJ10x x AKQxx I would reverse in a heart beat.


Reread the question
0

#16 User is offline   FrancesHinden 

  • Limit bidder
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 8,482
  • Joined: 2004-November-02
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:England
  • Interests:Bridge, classical music, skiing... but I spend more time earning a living than doing any of those

Posted 2014-July-18, 15:10

I originally learnt it as a one round force only, but now play it as game forcing along with everyone else.
0

#17 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-18, 19:38

After more research it looks like this depends on system even though the poll is strongly in favour of game forcing.

Trustcott's "The Bidding Dictionary" gives this as ?12+ which means slightly flexible at the lower end. He also states it is FG.

On the other hand Crowhurst's "Acol Index" for the equivalent auction 1D 1H; 2D 2S says 10+ Forcing. In "Precision bidding in Acol" he describes 1C 1D; 2C 2S by "It shows the values for 2NT, at least, and directs partners attention to the weakness in hearts.

Clearly I haven't played enough Standard American to have learnt that it was forcing to game.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#18 User is offline   gnasher 

  • Andy Bowles
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 11,993
  • Joined: 2007-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:London, UK

Posted 2014-July-19, 00:48

 Cascade, on 2014-July-18, 19:38, said:

After more research it looks like this depends on system even though the poll is strongly in favour of game forcing.

Trustcott's "The Bidding Dictionary" gives this as ?12+ which means slightly flexible at the lower end. He also states it is FG.

On the other hand Crowhurst's "Acol Index" for the equivalent auction 1D 1H; 2D 2S says 10+ Forcing. In "Precision bidding in Acol" he describes 1C 1D; 2C 2S by "It shows the values for 2NT, at least, and directs partners attention to the weakness in hearts.

Clearly I haven't played enough Standard American to have learnt that it was forcing to game.


Notwithstanding what Crowhurst wrote, I think it became game-forcing amongst Acol tournament players in England in about 1990. For example, the EBU's Standard English system file say's it's game-forcing.
... that would still not be conclusive proof, before someone wants to explain that to me as well as if I was a 5 year-old. - gwnn
0

#19 User is offline   Cascade 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Yellows
  • Posts: 6,765
  • Joined: 2003-July-22
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:New Zealand
  • Interests:Juggling, Unicycling

Posted 2014-July-19, 02:27

 gnasher, on 2014-July-19, 00:48, said:

Notwithstanding what Crowhurst wrote, I think it became game-forcing amongst Acol tournament players in England in about 1990. For example, the EBU's Standard English system file say's it's game-forcing.


Thanks and interesting since the Acol Index was published around 10 years later in 2000.
Wayne Burrows

I believe that the USA currently hold only the World Championship For People Who Still Bid Like Your Auntie Gladys - dburn
dunno how to play 4 card majors - JLOGIC
True but I know Standard American and what better reason could I have for playing Precision? - Hideous Hog
Bidding is an estimation of probabilities SJ Simon

#20 User is offline   rhm 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 3,092
  • Joined: 2005-June-27

Posted 2014-July-19, 13:33

 Cascade, on 2014-July-16, 17:34, said:

What do you bid with

AQxx
KQJxx
xx(x)
x(x)

4531 or 4522

Make it 4531 if you would raise with 4522. If you are willing to pass with 11hcp add a point AQJx or AQJxx or similar?

I would say if opener is limited and responder reverses it is game forcing on opener only.
Kit Woolsey has no qualms forcing to game with an invitational hand, if that will make the decision more informed to reach the best game, and who am I to argue with him.
With your actual hand there is not much wrong with 2NT protecting your spades. But with say AKxx KJxxx xx xx 2 might be preferable.
So what?
It is unlikely that 2NT just making is available. So the likely worst scenario is that you go down one more in 3NT than you would have in 2NT
But if opener just bids 3 over 2 I would not call it a crime to pass 3.
Just do not make this a habit.

Rainer Herrmann
0

  • 2 Pages +
  • 1
  • 2
  • You cannot start a new topic
  • You cannot reply to this topic

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users