[silvr bull]

Partner says my bid here is one of the worst he has ever seen! What would you bid as South?
IMPs with random BBO opponents.

Open 5 card majors. 1NT forces one more bid.

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[Lord Molyb]

2♠. Your values aren't good enough to invite outright and you should "correct" to the 5-2 fit.
2♥ isn't terrible but it's likely to get you into the wrong strain. Pass could work out too.

[helene_t]

It is unusual that 1nt is forcing by a passed hand.

I think pass is very bad and 2nt is quite bad. 2♥ is not terrible but with a 5332 13-count partner might have passed 1nt, and 5143 is more likely than 5341 now that hearts is my long suit.

[mikeh]

I adopt helene's comment re 1N as a passed hand. At most it is usually played as 'semi-forcing' by a passed hand.

As for what to bid, 2♠ is a 'wtp' choice.

Pass is silly for multiple reasons, including:

1) a 5-2 is probably better/safer than a 4-3, especially with 2 honours in spades
2) partner may be just short of a jumpshift and will bid again over 2♠. If so, then game is a strong favourite and is unreachable after pass


2♥ is silly because partner should pass it with a stiff, which will not result in a good contract. It is how you bid with a bad 6 card suit. Now, some might argue that you can't hold 6+ hearts and not have pre-empted, but that isn't good bridge. Imagine x Jxxxxxx Kx Qxx.

2n is a gross overbid.

so 2♠ is a standout bid.

I'm not sure which of 2N or 2♥ would qualify as the one of the worst bids he'd ever seen....they are horrible but he's led a sheltered life if he hasn't seen worse. Of course, maybe you did worse Technically, passing isn't a bid, btw.

[gszes]

Since your 1n is forcing (even by a passed hand) there is no guarantee p has 4
diamonds (5332) so passing 2d is just as scary if not more so than converting to 2s
which conceivably could be into a 42 spade fit (though never if you always have
at least 5 opposite a passed hand--strongly recommended). This hand could easily be
a mild misfit and treating it as invitational or better is a huge overbid.

[neilkaz]

I would NOT play 1NTF by a passed hand. Anyhow, here, easy 2♠ bid, Be happy that you have JT in support rather than 2 small. I'd not introduce that mediocre (at best) ♥ suit which PD should be able to pass with a stiff. Passing 2♦ might leave you in a 3-3 fit on a bad day.

2NT is a gross overbid and would be a candidate for worst bid seen.

[helene_t]

gszes, on 2014-October-08, 12:50, said:

conceivably could be into a 42 spade fit

No, if you open 1♠ on a 4-card suit in third seat it is with the intention to pass any response. So the rebid confirms 5+ spades.

[billw55]

2♠ > pass >> 2♥ > 2NT.

Quote

I'm not sure which of 2N or 2♥ would qualify as the one of the worst bids he'd ever seen....they are horrible but he's led a sheltered life if he hasn't seen worse.

Agree.

[Manastorm]

2♠ is an easy choice for me. No clear support for any suit, not enough values to invite NT, dont have my own suit and 5-2 spades with JT should be ok, maybe partner finds another bid, then I got something. 2♥ is an attempt to find a miserable 5-1 fit. I dont think 2NT is as bad as some say, my 3rd choice actually.

[steve2005]

yes would like to know his bid. only 2N is completely hideous.

[TylerE]

I'm dissapointed in you guys. No yet has mentioned our obligation to show support for partner by raising to 3♦?

[Bbradley62]

If we're not careful, we may set a BBO Forums record for the highest number of unanimous votes.

Edit: Seriously? Within an hour of my post someone voted for 2♥??

This post has been edited by Bbradley62: 2014-October-08, 16:02

[chasetb]

I disagree with most of you! I think 2NT is better than 2♥ as the third best bid -> we have some strength in both, and especially if they attack ♥ we have great stoppers. I also expect 6+ ♥ for 2♥.

2♠ is easily my first choice, and Pass is second. A good rule of thumb here is you should have at least 2 more cards in the second suit than the first in order to pass, or 1 more card if you have 4+ more HCP in that suit.

EDIT - I agree that 1NT should only be Semi-Forcing by a Passed Hand.

[mycroft]

"If you have never been passed in Blackwood, you can not win an individual." - Jeff Goldsmith

So, if any call you may have reasonably made is the worst call partner's ever seen, he's never won an individual...

[whereagles]

I hereby express my choice of joining the "2♠ wtp" bandwagon.

[rmnka447]

I'm also in the 2 ♠ camp.

If partner has 4 ♦, then you have a known 5-2 ♠ fit and a 4-3 ♦ fit. It's usually better to play in the 5-2 fit.

[silvr bull]

Thanks for all the responses. I have now added my unrepentant vote for 2♥. Can someone tell me how to add a signature to all my posts? I would like mine to read "I am a stranger in a strange land." I expected a nearly unanimous vote, but in favor of 2♥

If my hand was weak (xx Jxxxx Qxx Kxx for example), I would have bid 2S in a flash, and hope it goes all pass. But my hand is stronger than that minimum, and I can dream that partner might have better than a minimum too. Suppose opener has something like Axxxx QJx AKxx x (or possibly Kxxxx Qxxx AKJx void). A 2♠ bid by me will end the auction, and we might eek out a plus there, but I would much rather be in 4♥. I can also imagine hands that would play well in 3NT (with a helpful contribution from my ♠JT), but partner needs to hear something forward going from me to get there. If opener has the dreaded stiff ♥ and a minimum, there will still be no problem if he does not panic about a possible misfit and pass ensuring a misfit, but bids again instead. After making what I consider to be a mildly forward going bid, I can happily pass if opener rebids his 5 card ♠ suit, and no harm would have been done by my shot at finding a good ♥ fit on the way to a sell out at 2♠. If this is a real misfit and I have the weak hand that wanted to play in 2♥, then I can rebid the suit and partner can pass with a stiff, knowing that he too did his best to avoid a bad situation. Getting one trick higher in a misfit is not desirable, but I think the possible gain from treating the 2♥ bid as forward going with a 5 card suit outweighs the possible risk.

After a few more replies, I will post partner's hand too so all can see how my 2♥ bid turned out. Hint, it was not pretty.

[mikeh]

silvr bull, on 2014-October-08, 22:58, said:

Thanks for all the responses. I have now added my unrepentant vote for 2♥. Can someone tell me how to add a signature to all my posts? I would like mine to read "I am a stranger in a strange land." I expected a nearly unanimous vote, but in favor of 2♥

If my hand was weak (xx Jxxxx Qxx Kxx for example), I would have bid 2S in a flash, and hope it goes all pass. But my hand is stronger than that minimum, and I can dream that partner might have better than a minimum too. Suppose opener has something like Axxxx QJx AKxx x (or possibly Kxxxx Qxxx AKJx void). A 2♠ bid by me will end the auction, and we might eek out a plus there, but I would much rather be in 4♥. I can also imagine hands that would play well in 3NT (with a helpful contribution from my ♠JT), but partner needs to hear something forward going from me to get there. If opener has the dreaded stiff ♥ and a minimum, there will still be no problem if he does not panic about a possible misfit and pass ensuring a misfit, but bids again instead. After making what I consider to be a mildly forward going bid, I can happily pass if opener rebids his 5 card ♠ suit, and no harm would have been done by my shot at finding a good ♥ fit on the way to a sell out at 2♠. If this is a real misfit and I have the weak hand that wanted to play in 2♥, then I can rebid the suit and partner can pass with a stiff, knowing that he too did his best to avoid a bad situation. Getting one trick higher in a misfit is not desirable, but I think the possible gain from treating the 2♥ bid as forward going with a 5 card suit outweighs the possible risk.

After a few more replies, I will post partner's hand too so all can see how my 2♥ bid turned out. Hint, it was not pretty.

You are guilty of allowing what you hold to influence your understanding of what 2♥ means. You'd like it to be constructive with 5 hearts. It isn't. Wishing it were doesn't make it so. The fact that you can construct hands on which partner will have bid 2♦ and 4♥ is a good contract is a snare and illusion. Until you learn that, you will never become a good bidder. You have to accept the limitations of whatever system you have agreed to play...and every system has limitations, every single one. In standard, 2♥ is a weak to constructive hand with 6+ hearts, and since you are a passed hand, that says your suit isn't appropriate for a weak 2. Partner is usually going to pass. If he bids, then he was going to bid over 2♠ so you were worried about the wrong thing. He will not be rebidding a 5 card spade suit and you are deluding yourself, again, when you entertain that possibility. At least, not if he has any basic understanding of bidding.

[fourdad]

This is only a problem because 1NT is forcing as a passed hand! Can't wait to see your partners hand, as I am betting a pass of 1NT would have been a more than reasonable, if not best, choice. 1NT forcing here begs the question, "how will you ever know if your pd opened light?" 1NT forcing is a systemic flaw that needs correcting.

[m1cha]

I agree with most here that the system bid with the S hand is 2♠. But that doesn't automatically make 2♥ such a bad bid. I see it this way (using your quote, Mike, with the strike-out being my edit[!]):

mikeh, on 2014-October-08, 23:13, said:

In standard, 2♥ is a weak to constructive hand with 6+ hearts[!], and since you are a passed hand, that says your suit isn't appropriate for a weak 2. Partner is usually going to pass

and continue "and from this we infer that it is usually a 6-card suit". 2♥ essentially suggests misfits in opener's suits. But if you cannot bid 2♥ with a 5-card suit, what will you do with a 1-5-2-5 hand after 2♦ from opener? Let him play 2♦ in a 4-2 fit? 2♠ in a 5-1 fit? Bid 2NT with 8 HCP or less? Or will you play 2♥ which is probably good?

Opposite a partner who has exactly 5 spades and denied 4 hearts, I expect the following number of cards in hearts:
3 (42.4 %)
2 (38.3 %)
1 (16.6 %)
0 ( 2.7 %)
2♥ seems to do good rather than harm in most cases, so if we bid 2♠ instead of 2♥ the reason is not so much that 2♥ is such a bad bid but that 2♠ is what most players expect us to do with a doubleton in ♠, and that I don't risk upsetting partner just in case he's really short in hearts. And yes, because partner may still have a 6-card ♠ suit. Yet, once we agreed that 2♥ CAN be a 5-card suit given the circumstances, the reason for failing to open 2♥ may be right that it actually IS a 5-card suit, so opener should be alerted.

From what I have read so far, I guess N hat a hand such as (a) 5-0-5-3 or (b) 6-0-4-3, passed, and things went real weird. In that case I would say - twisting your words again, Mike - N was "guilty of allowing what you [N] hold to influence your understanding of what 2♥ [by S] means." Actually, if I were N and the dummy came down after I passed 2♥ with hand (a), well, partner plays, so I get myself a snack and welcome the next board . With hand (b) I would bid 2♠ over 2♥ and cross fingers.

By the way, with that hand of yours,

mikeh, on 2014-October-08, 12:17, said:

x Jxxxxxx Kx Qxx

I think I would open 2♥. I am aware this is not a system bid and I am aware this may go wrong sometimes. But I think partner will usually do the right thing (trying to assess my strength) while opponents will usually miscount the tricks. So I expect it will do more good than bad.