[mycroft]

So, this is always a cross-Pond disagreement (and having said that, I am not 100% on the Leftpondian side, except when I rule, of course).

In England and some other places, the Stop card player makes the count and controls the tempo. The implication here is that the call should come in the same time frame as the Stop Card retraction, and if it doesn't, then it's clear there was thinking going on. That is a clear benefit, as is the fact that the Stop bidder has nothing to do but count time, and the next hand doesn't have to do the "3 second think, 7 second pause, or was it 5 seconds think, so 5 second pause" game.

Of course, it relies on the Stop Card bidder being able to count 10 seconds, which is in fact a difficult task. I know, all the posters here get it right (through various and sundry singing counts - better than steamboats, as people's sense of music tempo is better than their sense of second, oddly enough); I would believe that after 20 years of universal training, almost all in EBU get it right; I am quite certain that it would never work here, even if we tried it; and would have never worked even if we didn't have all the experience we have now of getting it wrong.

I am also sure that there are many who count to 10 in 5 seconds and then would gripe when I did my usual ACBL-trained pause for the rest. I only hope that it'll be the hand like when our opponents literally stood on the chair and screamed for the TD "He hesitated, and he bid!" where it becomes obvious to even "I know it was today, but *what time* today?" players that no thinking took place.

Over here, it's the responsibility of the person who gains a benefit from putting in a "95% think time pause" 100% of the time to count it. The benefit is that I don't have to trust my opponents, who really do not have my best interests top in their mind, to get the pause right, nor do I have to obviously watch for the card pull, while still appearing to be thinking about my call (which I'm sure is just as hard as pretending to think is - how many Stop Card Starers do you get, anyway?), nor do I have to worry about the TD call when I took 7 seconds to determine my call, then look up to find the Stop Card's gone, then the TD call because it was "clearly after the card was pulled", which I'm sure is a situation I can't win.

Swings, roundabouts. All I know is that the current ACBL situation is the worst of both worlds, and I hope we'll be getting a lot more "shotgun pass" or "yeah, but the last three times I preempted, it was a shotgun call, so this time it's clear he was thinking" calls to do some player training on.

[Edit: I see the quote from the white book about "'10-second' stop cards that are actually 5 seconds" Vampyr posted. I'm still certain that when the "he said, she said" discussion happens with the TD at the table, as the "hesitator", I'm going to have a very hard time winning this case. After all, 10 seconds *is* a really long time, and the rest of the table is going to all agree it was "at least 10 seconds" if *they* haven't been sing-counting...]

(*) for those that care, playing EHAA in the Red Ribbons, *many* years ago, the auction went 2♠ (Alert and explain)-3NT-p-p; 4♥ "DIE-REC-TOR!" It actually took my partner to say "did you not make a jump call?" for me to realize what the problem was - because "I hadn't hesitated", I thought. Dummy tracks, to 4♠X after the obvious auction, with Qxx Jxx 8xxx Txx...lose 4 Aces for -200 (and a very smug top).

[blackshoe]

What if I don't know the words?

[barmar]

 Vampyr, on 2014-October-22, 10:38, said:

If you don't need to think, or are the Stop-card holder, sing "When I'm 64" to yourself. You will finish the word "valentine" after 10 seconds.

Yeah, I know about that trick. But I can't get myself to sit there that long, it just seems way too long.

I've long thought that when organizations came up with 10 seconds as the appropriate amount, the main reason was that it's a nice, round number. They didn't really think about how long it actually is compared to how much time players actually take to bid,even when they have to think a bit. I don't think there's ever a 10-second think -- either you can come up with a bid in 1-5 seconds, or you go into the tank for much longer than 10 seconds. (The main exception is beginners and life novices who have to think about almost everything, but their normal tempo is extremely slow so there's no special need for skip bid hesitations.)

[aguahombre]

 blackshoe, on 2014-October-22, 15:41, said:

What if I don't know the words?

hum a few bars, and they will fake it.

[Vampyr]

 barmar, on 2014-October-22, 16:07, said:

Yeah, I know about that trick. But I can't get myself to sit there that long, it just seems way too long.

I can understand that -- I find that it's not unusual for weaker players to make a call BEFORE I've removed the Stop card (I am pretty consistent about holding it out for the full 10 seconds).

[aguahombre]

 Vampyr, on 2014-October-22, 16:11, said:

I can understand that -- I find that it's not unusual for weaker players to make a call BEFORE I've removed the Stop card (I am pretty consistent about holding it out for the full 10 seconds).

Oops. I am now a weaker player, because my RHO can't count to ten. Find another reason to call me what I am, please.

[blackshoe]

 barmar, on 2014-October-22, 16:07, said:

(The main exception is beginners and life novices who have to think about almost everything, but their normal tempo is extremely slow so there's no special need for skip bid hesitations.)

And yet their opponents still call the director because the life novice's (or beginner's) normal tempo is "out of tempo!"

[Vampyr]

 aguahombre, on 2014-October-22, 16:16, said:

Oops. I am now a weaker player, because my RHO can't count to ten. Find another reason to call me what I am, please.

Well, it is mainly the regular tournament-goers who generally wait until the Stop cards is removed, and it is usually the most experienced of those that I can count on always to do it. This has been my experience; YMMV, of course.

[blackshoe]

I would be surprised if many of Agua's opponents leave the stop card out for ten seconds, considering that the regulation here says to put it out there, make your skip bid, and immediately pick it up.