[jillybean]

I am interested in what agreements BBF'ers have in advancing after opponents pe-empt and partner makes a bid at the 3 level.

Here is the hand that has prompted the discussion.

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[ggwhiz]

The only particular agreement we have is that partner is showing a very good hand on these colors since the opponents silence indicates that partner is not short in clubs. No guarantees but I have too much to pass.

3♠ is natural and forcing and we will most likely land in 4 of either major. A cuebid is slammish, usually promises hearts but can be the unbid suits with a much better hand than this one.

[whereagles]

Standard agreements are as ggwhiz says.

Preferred agreements are transfer advances:

3♠ = nat forcing
3NT = nat
4♣ = diamonds. Nat or cue with heart support
4♦ = good heart support
4♥ = nat, weaker than 4♦

[jillybean]

I'm interested in what agreements as to the strength of the overcaller, advanced, not what conventions you play.

[aguahombre]

jillybean, on 2014-October-18, 16:24, said:

I'm interested in what agreements as to the strength of the overcaller, advanced, not what conventions you play.

GGwhiz implied above that the strength of the overcall itself is dependent upon other things. With, say, 3 Clubs overcaller will likely have more power to bid 3H. With club shortness in direct position we will stretch to get in there with a bid or double.

So, the answer for advancer depends in part on whether he/she can figure out if pard as some clubs. The given advancing hand, IMO, should keep the bidding alive even though it is in the 6-9 expected range because partner is likely to be stronger AND the pointed suits are nice.

New suits at the same level by advancer should be agreed as forcing, not mere correction out of fright.

[mgoetze]

jillybean, on 2014-October-18, 10:28, said:

I am interested in what agreements BBF'ers have in advancing after opponents pe-empt and partner makes a bid at the 3 level.

Good, good...

Quote

Here is the hand that has prompted the discussion.

Wait, what? There is nothing to discuss with that hand.

[whereagles]

jillybean, on 2014-October-18, 16:24, said:

I'm interested in what agreements as to the strength of the overcaller, advanced

Overcaller: usually good 10-11 HCP to around 18-19 HCP or so. The lower the HCP, the better/longer the suit should be.

Advancer: rule #1 after preempts is to understand overcaller is already bidding some of your values. So, unless you have 9-10 HCP+ (if less then support), you should just pass.

[helene_t]

Partner has opening strength but usually less than 18 points.

Obviously there is no guarantee that we have game values but I think we have too much to pass.

Best is 4♣ with this hand showing ostensibly a flexible hand with 5+ spades (3♠ would deny five spades), but standard is 3♠=natural and forcing.

[mikeh]

At the 3-level, one should generally have a solid opening hand and a good suit, 5 cards as a minimum, but usually 6.

It is useful to bear in mind that there is a continuum of possible actions for overcaller:

Overcall: the weakest of positive actions

Double then bid the suit: stronger than an overcall, and usually with a flexible hand. After the 3♣ opening, double then 3♠ over, say, 3♦ or 3♥ would classically show a good 16+ with 6=3=3=1 shape. Obviously one isn't always dealt a classic hand, but partner will bid as if this is what you are showing.

Jumping to 4M would show a hand too good to overcall, and with a 6+ suit, and 'wrong' to double then bid, usually because one isn't willing to play in partner's probable suit.

This means that the overcall is limited on the upside by not being suitable for either of the stronger actions: double or jump overcall.

Note that some players would advocate that double then 3♥ over a 3♦ advance doesn't show the strong flexible hand but merely an opening hand with 4=5 majors. This can be very useful and the notion is that such hands arise more frequently than do double and bid plus they are very difficult to bid otherwise, while with the strong flexible one-suiter, you may survive by overcalling or by jumping, or just land on one's feet after doubling...after all, partner often doesn't make the 'wrong' advance. However, that is not standard so you shouldn't assume partner is doing that absent agreement.

Note that if one doesn't play this approach, we could really have a problem here.

I don't actually understand why anyone thinks the OP is a non-problem.

3♠ seems right but it is far from perfect. Partner will/should raise on many layouts with Hx, and that will likely prove to be inadequate support. He will, after all, assume that you are playing him to have a decent 6 card heart suit yet have suggested spades as a strain.

Or he may bid 3N. Now what? Are you really strong enough to show diamonds, continuing the force? Can you risk passing? Or should you retreat to 4♥?

I think that there are 3 logical choices in the OP situation: pass isn't crazy but I couldn't bring myself to do it.

4♥ may well be the best spot. I do have a club ruffing value and there probably isn't much the opps can do about it without surrendering an important tempo in the play.

But, what if partner is 3=5=2=3 or 4=5=2=2 or such? Now we belong in spades and we can't get there from 4♥. Meanwhile, on many hands where we belong in hearts, we can still get there from spades.

So I think it close, but that 3♠ wins out, and that's the call I would always make at the table, without in any way thinking that this is always working out.

[aguahombre]

All of the above from Mikeh, except we have agreed 4C after 3S is for strain rather than slam, necessarily with 2-6 in the majors; so, 3S happens to be less dangerous. Advancer is the one who might initiate slam interest, since overcaller has a somewhat limited range.

Sorry, if that is an unwelcome gadget, Cath; but it seemed reasonable as an extension to Mikeh's thoughts.