[mgoetze]

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[eagles123]

I think North 100%

[ArtK78]

100% to North. You can put the promised 17-19 HCP in the South hand anywhere you like, and in many cases there will at least be play for slam. Some will have play for a grand (give South the same hand and add the Q of either minor suit - the ♦Q gives you 13 tricks (barring a trump loser), and the ♣Q gives you no worse than a club finesse for 13 tricks). The main losing case is that opener has 2 or 3 small hearts. To play for South to have one of the hands where 5 is in jeopardy is to be overly pessimistic. North should know that his 4♠ bid is likely to end the auction, as South is missing the minor suit aces.

Aside from distributing the blame between the partners, the methods are largely at fault here. Having to jump to 4♥ to show a good hand is the wrong way to construct a slam exploration system. Yes, a great deal of information was conveyed. But one should take a lesson from the manner in which most modern relay systems have been constructed. Common distributions, such as 5332, should be shown economically. Extreme distributions are shown with higher bids that waste space. Here, the combination of a maximum (i.e., slam going) values and the most common distribution required a jump almost to game. This is a terrible waste of space. North now misevaluated his hand based in large part (I assume) on the fact that opener had a flat hand. North failed to realize that even with 5332 shape the promised 17-19 HCP could be enough for slam.

By the way, the poll would have been better if you had allowed for responders to choose more than one choice. Also, the commentary is not necessarily the right point to make. Yes, North's 5th trump is important. But the main reason it is important is that South's promised values are enough for slam in most cases opposite the North hand. If I am assigning the blame between North and Souht, I blame North. If I am spreading the blame around to other factors, I also blame the system.

[rmnka447]

ArtK78 has hit the main points.

North was too timid over 4 ♥. North holds 12 HCP AND that very valuable 5th trump. Along with the 17-19 that opener has, it puts the hand clearly in the slam exploratory zone.

However, North's options to explore for slam have been severely limited by the bidding system which gobbled up so much bidding room to show opener's hand. North also has some concerns about whether slam exploration over 4 ♥ gets the partnership past a last makeable contract of 4 ♠.

Yet it would seem very unlucky if South held a hand that didn't have at least some legitimate play for 5 ♠.

[mikeh]

system sucks. as art said, paraphrasing, don't pre-empt yourself on slam hands.

I don't know the rest of the system, but I think for opener to show both shape and hcp with one response is misguided. Show more generic information. Now, I confess I am unfamiliar with 2N being invite plus, and I don't like it because it means that opener has to have a negative bid which could be used to good effect in gf auctions.

As for North....I don't understand why the 5th trump is seen as so useful. If partner has AKQxx, it isn't likely to be critical and nor is it useful opposite AQxxx.

Indeed, while it is pessimism carried to an extreme, S could hold, say, AKQxx Axx Kx Qxx and even 5 could fail.

N shouldn't think that way, but then again, we aren't told how N can continue the auction to good effect. Keycard is never going to be useful, and there has been a huge wastage of space such as to make cue-bidding dubious at best.

system sucks.

[lowerline]

mgoetze, on 2014-December-04, 14:52, said:

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I would have opened the South hand 1nt, but I assume you are not playing a 15-17 1nt opening.

I also play a 2nt response as invitational or bettter, but I use the 3nt rebid by opener to show the balanced hand above my 1nt opening range. Then there's still some space left for cuebids & last train before going into RKB.

But even under these conditions I would have gone to 6 with the North hand. If South turns up with AKQxx Jx KQx Kxx, there is a case for changing the system.

S.

[Fluffy]

29 balanced vs balanced do not normally produce slam, but here you got ♠Q out of nowhere.

[the_clown]

I dont think you could blame South for making his systemmic response. (The hand looks like a good 18 to me, but surely not worth an upgrade to 20)

I blame the system since it does not give North any space to investigate below 4♠. If South could show this hand by bidding 4♦, North could bid 4♥ last train and now for South it will be clear to go on. Of course it would be even better if this hand can be shown with a lower bid.

[andy_h]

System is bad.

Having said that, North should make some sort of move. 2 aces, fifth trump, 5422, gotta make a bit of noise at the risk of playing at the 5-level which is usually fine.

[whereagles]

System may be cumbersome, but it worked. Just do your bean-count and bid slam.

[neilkaz]

System sucks but North was very cautious. Taking up all that space with 4♥ to show this hand and to allow no slam probe below game is horrendous .

I'd recommend either Jacoby 2NT Plus or Stenberg 2NT if wanting to use 3M raise as preemptive rather than limit and not wanting something akin to Bergen with a 3m bid showing a limit raise.

[Phil]

I just lost half my lunch when I read the description of 4♥. Dude you're better than this.

Why burn two levels of bidding to show a hand IN THE SLAM ZONE. This is the worst time to gobble space. When slam is very unlikely or highly likely its not as bad, but when we need to explore delicately its critical to save space.

I suppose if 4♥ had some onerous requirement like a max of 0-1 keys / trump Q its playable....AQxxx Jx KQx KQx. Now we might be able to make an intelligent stop.

That being said, bidding 4♠ is something of a failure to play bridge. The hand has a 5th trump, two sticks and some ruffing values. 5♣ is probably best, and South with ALL PRIMES should just kick it in.

[Cthulhu D]

neilkaz, on 2014-December-05, 12:31, said:

System sucks but North was very cautious. Taking up all that space with 4♥ to show this hand and to allow no slam probe below game is horrendous .

I'd recommend either Jacoby 2NT Plus or Stenberg 2NT if wanting to use 3M raise as preemptive rath

than limit and not wanting something akin to Bergen with a 3m bid showing a limit raise.

He's playing (unless I miss my guess)

1M-2N:

3C: Any min, all other bids promise extras
3D: Unspecified Shortness
3H: Any 5422
3S: 6th trump no shortness
3N: 5 Clubs
4C: 5 diamonds
4D: 5oM
4H: 5332

I think the guys suggesting the comparison with relay systems have it right are right and you should put the 5332 hand lower in the structure' probably to 3NT and move the 5/5 hands up

Its always going to be tough though unless you lose the ability to show a hand type. Currently one hand is always going to conclude its shape description to high

This post has been edited by Cthulhu D: 2014-December-05, 16:11

[Cthulhu D]

Ddouple post

[mgoetze]

Cthulhu D, on 2014-December-05, 16:04, said:

He's playing (unless I miss my guess)

1M-2N:

3C: Any min, all other bids promise extras
3D: Unspecified Shortness
3H: Any 5422
3S: 6th trump no shortness
3N: 5 Clubs
4C: 5 diamonds
4D: 5oM
4H: 5332

I think the guys suggesting the comparison with relay systems have it right are right and you should put the 5332 hand lower in the structure' probably to 3NT and move the 5/5 hands up

Its always going to be tough though unless you lose the ability to show a hand type. Currently one hand is always going to conclude its shape description to high

Yup, this is what we're playing. In theory this allows finding out the short suit when opener has 5 in either minor. On the one hand 5332 is more common than 5-5, but on the other hand it seems more important to ask further about shape when opener has 5-5.

I guess everyone who hates the system is playing 2♣ GF relay. I'm pretty sure that would be too much for my partner at this time, though.

(Incidentally, it has also been suggested to me that we should allow ourselves even less space for shape, by playing 3♣ min, 3♦ max, higher answers medium.)

[mike777]

Again north has an adjusted 6loser hand.

South will almost always have a 6 loser or better hand. Please note even the death hand is 5.5 loser hand.

You can bid slam or worry about the death hand.

btw the actual hand is indeed a 6loser hand

[Cthulhu D]

You have to accept one hand is going to be too high, and it's either a 5332 balanced, a 55 major two suiter or a 5422 major two suiter - I kinda feel like the 5332 hand is fine to be the one that finishes too high, because that hand is the one that is mostly tightly defined and least benefits from a LTTC try.