[vinchy]

How would you bid after

(1)

---

(2)

---

This is how bidding went.

---

3♣ was a help suit game try, intending to play in 3NT. Partner's response denied a stopper in clubs, I got ambitious anyway and went to 4♠. Should I have gone?

Partner went on to go down 1, but it was clear that he misplayed a trick taking trumps. (perhaps opponents misdefended slightly, but that one mistake cost us 720)

Who would you say is at fault? Me or partner? (perhaps for your information, 1♠ overcall would show at least 10 HCP and 5.0 winners. And the xx (32) in each suit could be inaccurate but I believe that is academic.)

[Zelandakh]

Are you sure your partner took 3♣ as a HSGT? It is rather uncommon to play it that way... What would 1NT have shown for you instead?

[vinchy]

Zelandakh, on 2015-January-13, 11:49, said:

Are you sure your partner took 3♣ as a HSGT? It is rather uncommon to play it that way...

Was agreed

[vinchy]

1NT would be 6-9 HCP, non-forcing, after pass.

The 1 spades bid shows 5 spades.

[gordontd]

vinchy, on 2015-January-13, 11:50, said:

Was agreed

Can you tell us exactly what was agreed? This seems most unlikely.

[gordontd]

vinchy, on 2015-January-13, 11:41, said:

How would you bid after

(2)

---

I'd bid 1NT.

[wank]

you pass over 1d and then bid no trumps over 1s. for everyone here that would be 1NT, showing a lot more than 6-9, more like 10-13. if, for whatever reason, you play 1nt as 6-9, you have to bid 2nt.

[vinchy]

gordontd, on 2015-January-13, 11:59, said:

Can you tell us exactly what was agreed? This seems most unlikely.

We agree on most "odd" 3rd level bids to be taken as HSGT. Used in other situations too, and this was also one of them. Partner did not have any trouble understanding that and his response was right.

In the moment (a tournament) I could not think of any intermediate bids and went straight for the game try.

Would 2♥ be more common/acceptable?

[mgoetze]

(1) Pass.

(2) I play 2NT as a spade raise, so I have to bid 1NT. If 2NT were natural I would bid it.

[vinchy]

1NT seems about right now. Thanks. I might even be wrong about what we agree 1NT to be.

Should have thought more carefully.

[Phil]

1. Wrong Forum

2 A HSGT occurs after you have agreed on a suit. It isn't some random three level jump.

3. A HSGT doesn't probe for 3N although you may land there intelligently after you've got trumps set.

I'd bid 2N because I don't expect partner to raise 1N with 13-14.

[vinchy]

Phil, on 2015-January-13, 12:37, said:

1. Wrong Forum

2 A HSGT occurs after you have agreed on a suit. It isn't some random three level jump.

3. A HSGT doesn't probe for 3N although you may land there intelligently after you've got trumps set.

I'd bid 2N because I don't expect partner to raise 1N with 13-14.

We play the conventional HSGT too, but expand its range to other situations, such as after gameforce and for NT attempt.

I think (during the tournament) the xxx in clubs put me off for 2NT, the other table made 1NT+2 (if I am not wrong) though.

[mikeh]

welcome to the forums, vinchy.

Don't get upset over being told this was the wrong forum in which to post your questions. It will take a while to work out where best to post.

I think and hope that you are going to learn a lot about the game by coming here. It is a wonderful game, with almost infinite room for improvement.

What you may find at the outset is that many of the posters here are at a much more advanced level than you are, but of course every one of us started as an absolute beginner, a stage you are already beyond. We have players who have won world events, and several more who have competed internationally, and then we have players very new to the game, and everything in between.

As you learn more, your understanding of the standard meaning of terms will change. Thus it is normal for the term help suit game try to refer to the bid of a suit as a game try once a trump suit has been established....which means that the suit has been raised.

A typical and basic situation, that wouldn't apply on your actual hand, would be

[1♦] P [P] 1♠
[P] 2♠ [P] 3♣

now, 3♣ by partner would be a try for game opposite your single raise and, if you played help suit game tries, it would ask you to look at your club holding to see if it would be useful opposite some length in partner's hand. Precisely what sort of holding partner would have for the game try is a matter for partnership agreement, but something like KJxx would be normal for many.

HSGTs often arise in uncontested auctions as well: 1M [p] 2M [P] and now opener changes suit...this would be a hsgt if those were being used by the partnership.


Typically most here would treat your 3♣ jump as what is known as a fit-showing jump. While different partnerships might differ in terms of fine detail, typically it would show 5+ clubs and 4+ spades, with all or almost all one's values in the 2 suits, and invitational to 4♠. Kxxx xx xx AQJxx would be typical. This is because many experienced players use jumpshifts in competitive auctions as fit-showing. Few would play that the jumpshift would be fit showing if partner had dealt and opened 1♠!

On the actual hand, I think that most would bid 1N or 2N. Some players use 2N as artificial and so would have no real choice but to be conservative and bid 1N. Others would choose 1N anyway, while others would choose the more aggressive 2N. This is a hand that is close to the dividing line between the two calls, and style will motivate some to swing high, via 2N, and others low via 1N.

I hope this helps. I also suggest that you try posting for a while in the B/N forum until you have settled in. And, again, welcome.

[Fluffy]

Having an agreement is almost always better than having none.

However, even if you and your partner both think you had what you had when you bid 3♣. It is wrong to call it HSGT, HSGT does not mean what you think it means.

This is a HSGT over partner's spades:


♠K105
♥6
♦AJ63
♣Q8653

Notice the spade support, this is important. HSGT are always a try for 4M or a slam.


What you seem to be playing would be better described as stopper ask impossible jump.

[hrothgar]

Coming late to the thread.

1. I would most likely pass over a 1♦ opening. Non vulnerable, I'd give strong consideration to a 1♥ overcall.

2. After partner balanced with 1♠, I am torn between 1N and 2N. I lean towards 1N since I don't want to hang partner for balancing.

3. Its best not to use standard terminology like "Help Suit Game Try" to describe your own idiosyncratic treatments. It just confuses people.

[MrAce]

Phil, on 2015-January-13, 12:37, said:

1. Wrong Forum

There he is!

[whereagles]

vinchy, on 2015-January-13, 12:15, said:

1NT seems about right now. Thanks. I might even be wrong about what we agree 1NT to be.

Opening and overcalls have ranges differing in about ~2-3 HCP. What is

1x (pass) 1NT = 6-10
1x (pass) 2NT = 11-12
1x (pass) 3NT = 13-15

becomes something more like...

(1x) 1y (pass) 1NT = 8-12
(1x) 1y (pass) 2NT = 13-14
(1x) 1y (pass) 3NT = 15-17

and

(1x) pass (pass) 1y ; (pass) 1NT = 10-12
(1x) pass (pass) 1y ; (pass) 2NT = 13-14
(1x) pass (pass) 1y ; (pass) 3NT = 15-17

Most people play these ranges, give or take a point. In fact, they are quite universal, as far as I can tell.

[fourdad]

Agreeing with all the comments that your HSGT application is odd here, it seems to me that your pds 3S bid clearly denied a game or he would have bid it.

As a passed hand, your 4S bid was certainly "telling the same story twice". Pass is a bid, too!!

[ahydra]

fourdad, on 2015-January-14, 05:09, said:

Pass is a bid, too!!

Actually, it's a call. </pedant> All bids are calls, but not all calls are bids.

ahydra

[Trump Echo]

wank, on 2015-January-13, 12:05, said:

you pass over 1d and then bid no trumps over 1s. for everyone here that would be 1NT, showing a lot more than 6-9, more like 10-13. if, for whatever reason, you play 1nt as 6-9, you have to bid 2nt.

Yes. Yes.