[kenberg]

 Zelandakh, on 2015-March-06, 10:29, said:

A general rule that can be used if one is willing to move away from North American standard methods is that after 2NT in a GF auction bidding the 4th suit checks for a fit in that suit (if this makes sense) while bidding the 4th suit without going through 2NT is a general force/stopper ask, again within the context of the auction to date. There are few auctions where this approach falls down, imo considerably fewer than the approach where bidding the 4th suit is natural. This is a topic that actually comes up regularly on BBF but the details are always slightly different so it is easy not to see the pattern.

I am not really following this. After 1D-1S-2C we are not yet in a gf, far from it, and I assume that over 2C a bid of 2NT is a invitational bid that, on most holdings, opener will either pass or raise to 3NT. Am I right so far? Now after 1D-1S-2C-2H we are in a gf. But no one has yet bid 2NT.

After the 1D-1S-2C start, it is possible that the hand belongs in spades, hearts, diamonds clubs or NT, and it might belong in a part score, a game, or a slam so there is a lot to sort out. I am not so much disagreeing with what you say as not understanding it.

[Zelandakh]

Sorry Ken. What I was meaning is that you can use this in a variety of auctions and not only in this one as an exception. It applies once a GF is established, so after the 2♥ rebid in this case. In general though, this comes up more often in 2/1 auctions and you can see the same patterns at work if you review some of these. In other words, you are probably looking for your write-up specifically at posts/books/magazines on 4sf whereas in fact the articles may lie in a wider circle of general game forcing methods.

[awm]

Zel's suggestion is basically how I play these. Basically a bid of the 4th suit is only natural if notrump has been bid. So:

1d-1s-2c-2h is artificial
1d-1s-2c-2h-3h is still artificial punt
1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt-3h is natural
1d-1s-2c-2nt is invitational of course
1d-1s-2c-2nt-3h is natural (and GF)

[kenberg]

Sounds good, Adam. It covers a lot, adn has one guiding principle that makes it easy to remember. This latter part is very useful.

[mikeh]

 awm, on 2015-March-06, 15:26, said:

Zel's suggestion is basically how I play these. Basically a bid of the 4th suit is only natural if notrump has been bid. So:

1d-1s-2c-2h is artificial
1d-1s-2c-2h-3h is still artificial punt

You have me completely confused.

If I understand what you wrote, you can have 5 calls in the auction, including bids of 2 and 3♥, and be in the situation in which neither partner has shown any heart length at all, and while opener is somewhat limited by the 2♣ call, and responder is known to hold game values or better, both partners have hardly limited their strength in any meaningful way.

The partnership is at 3♥ without any means of finding if they have any heart fit at all. They might be 3-0 or 5-4 in hearts. They might belong in some as yet unknown and unhinted at game, or in any one of 10 slam contracts and have nicely used up an entire level of bidding to convey no useful information.

Remember the OP raised the issue of how to explore slam in hearts should responder have hearts and the partnership used 3♥ by opener to show hearts. The problem raised by the OP was that absent special agreements there was no way to set trump in a forward-going way.

Your 'solution' makes an already difficult situation utterly impossible. Now NEITHER player has yet promised or denied hearts! Responder can't even bid 4♥ on a 4 card suit, let alone look for slam. Just how the heck does the partnership find a 4-4 fit in hearts if they are never allowed to bid the suit naturally no matter how many rounds of bidding they get to screw around with?

I don't care how easy this is to remember....wild horses couldn't get me to play such a destructive method of constructive bidding.

You're a fine player so I assume I am missing something obvious

[cherdano]

 mikeh, on 2015-March-06, 15:52, said:

You're a fine player so I assume I am missing something obvious

I am sure Adam would rebid 2N with 4 hearts almost always - that's why responder shows 4 hearts with 3H over 2N. 3H would only be bid by hands that have fewer than 4 hearts, or don't care about missing a heart fit (xxxx).

[mikeh]

 cherdano, on 2015-March-06, 16:02, said:

I am sure Adam would rebid 2N with 4 hearts almost always - that's why responder shows 4 hearts with 3H over 2N. 3H would only be bid by hands that have fewer than 4 hearts, or don't care about missing a heart fit (xxxx).

So over 2N by opener, how does responder distinguish between 4 and 5 hearts?

I see he says that over opener's 2N, 3♥ is natural, but if it can be 4 hearts, opener can usually only raise with 4, presumably. Opener could well bid 4m as a cuebid along the way, but the point remains: if 3♥ could be 4 then opener will usually be bidding 3N here.

And if it is always 5 plus, we still have the spectre of having game going values, or better, with no opposition bidding at all, and being unable to find a 4-4 heart fit. If I am reading this correctly, then this is unacceptable.

Edit: in addition, having to bid 2N with 0=4=5=4 and, say, 1=3=5=4 or 2=2=5=4 with a heart stopper (assuming one wouldn't rebid 1N due to being out of range and/or not opening 1n with 2=2=5=4 and no spade card) makes me a little nervous. Just when does opener actually begin describing his hand?

[awm]

More details after 1d-1s-2c-2h:

2s = usually Hx in spades; can be three spades in a hand not suited to raising directly
2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper
3c = at least 5/5 minors
3d = at least 6/4 minors
3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx

1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt:

3m = sets the suit, asks for cuebid or opener can bid 3nt if very bad for slam
3s = 6+spade, opener can bid 3nt to reject spades or otherwise cuebid
3h = at least four hearts, opener bids:
... 3s = small doubleton, 2254
... 3nt = 1354 with decent hearts
... 4x = cue with 4 hearts

I don't see any big problem here. In contrast if openers 3h is natural:

1. What does opener bid with 1354 and no heart stop?
2. What does responder bid with 5143 over 3h, where slam depends heavily on openers heart holding (and 3nt may be the last spot)?
3. How does responder make a slam try in hearts over 3h? If 3s is artificial you can produce a nice (though complex) solution but if you need 3s natural here it seems you are out of room...

[mikeh]

 awm, on 2015-March-06, 17:30, said:

More details after 1d-1s-2c-2h:

2s = usually Hx in spades; can be three spades in a hand not suited to raising directly
2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper
3c = at least 5/5 minors
3d = at least 6/4 minors
3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx

1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt:

3m = sets the suit, asks for cuebid or opener can bid 3nt if very bad for slam
3s = 6+spade, opener can bid 3nt to reject spades or otherwise cuebid
3h = at least four hearts, opener bids:
... 3s = small doubleton, 2254
... 3nt = 1354 with decent hearts
... 4x = cue with 4 hearts

I don't see any big problem here. In contrast if openers 3h is natural:

1. What does opener bid with 1354 and no heart stop?
2. What does responder bid with 5143 over 3h, where slam depends heavily on openers heart holding (and 3nt may be the last spot)?
3. How does responder make a slam try in hearts over 3h? If 3s is artificial you can produce a nice (though complex) solution but if you need 3s natural here it seems you are out of room...

thx for the explanation

[kenberg]

Since we have come this far, let me pin down one aspect of this.
After 1D-1S-2C-2H-2NT, responder could have both four hearts and a four card minor. This makes him 5=4=4/0 but it happens. If I understand correctly, opener might well have four hearts. Further, if responder bids 3m showing that fit, a 3H bid by opener is a cue, not a suit. So, to avoid this problem, responder should delay showing his minor fit and bid 3H. If partner raises this heart bid, that's great. If not, he probably bids 3NT and then, if we want to go on, we can show the minor fit I suppose.

This problem will not arise often, but it will happen at times.

I am very appreciative of the general scheme.

[Charlie Yu]

3S cue bid? Partner has shown his exact shape already, I think you want to see if pd can show some C control.

[Lovera]

I was thinking at splinter and its use and i am of idea to limit it enter third level indicating singleton in suit +/-1 respect probable trump (so singleton in spade or diamond if heart is probable trump and so on for other suits). When arise a situation like this (=4th suit) togheter splinter meaning we can estabilish a priority to difference. So i said: is 4th suit if has bidded (early) NT for its use to know stopper, splinter at third level if has not bidded NT. So if spade is not trump should be probably used to indicate splinter for (here) club suit.

[Jinksy]

 awm, on 2015-March-06, 17:30, said:

2nt = usually 3-4 hearts; maybe a strong doubleton heart, if fewer than four hearts will have at least a stopper
3h = 2254 or 1354 without a heart stop, spades worse than Hx

Does this have any effect on what you consider a H stop? It seems like it could affect edge cases either way - eg not playing this system, 3H over 2N could be (I don't know if it normally would be) a check back against the solidarity of the stop, whereas playing it means you can't do so - so perhaps 2N needs a more robust stop in the first place.

Against that, since 3H with this system suggests a hand that's got fewer average Hs than it would without this system, if you bid it on eg Qxx, partner's never going to take a punt on his Jxx, so you might miss 3N.

Or do you just go with the 'life's too short' approach in any system, and decide a stop's a stop?

[awm]

If bidding notrump showed a specific stopper, we do not place priority on having a subsequent call to again ask for the same stopper. Of course some low-level NT bids may not show a stopper (1m-1S-X-P-1NT) and in this case having an ask is normal.

In fact I think the more common alternative for 1d-1s-2c-2h-2nt-3h is showing 5/5 majors, not a stopper re-ask. Otherwise how do you bid this hand?

[Lovera]

The bidding of 4th suit (forcing a round) query for a"stopper" or complementary to a "stopper" to play NT (if at third level warrant a subsequent bidding but is not forcing game) .. According to a variant a jump in 4th suit meaning acceptance of the second suit of the opener inviting to slam (starting cue bids etc).