[antonylee]

In a "normal" 2/1 context (in particular, assume that 1M-2below-3M sets trumps)... any good agreements about what a 4M rebid after 1M-2below shows? Obviously, it should be some sort of very shapely hand, but do you have agreements about what partner needs to make a move towards slam?

[Mbodell]

antonylee, on 2015-July-30, 22:19, said:

In a "normal" 2/1 context (in particular, assume that 1M-2below-3M sets trumps)... any good agreements about what a 4M rebid after 1M-2below shows? Obviously, it should be some sort of very shapely hand, but do you have agreements about what partner needs to make a move towards slam?

A minimum opener with 7+ in the trump suit and void in the 2/1 suit? I don't actually have this agreement, but that sort of feels like what it should be. Like, if I knew your (likely) values were in my void I would have opened 4M.

[MrAce]

antonylee, on 2015-July-30, 22:19, said:

In a "normal" 2/1 context (in particular, assume that 1M-2below-3M sets trumps)... any good agreements about what a 4M rebid after 1M-2below shows? Obviously, it should be some sort of very shapely hand, but do you have agreements about what partner needs to make a move towards slam?

Without agreements that would be a 4M opening with an extra card or 2 on the side which makes it too strong for some people to open 4. But I like the idea of this bid showing something about 2/1 suit as Mbodell mentioned.

[nige1]

antonylee, on 2015-July-30, 22:19, said:

In a "normal" 2/1 context (in particular, assume that 1M-2below-3M sets trumps)... any good agreements about what a 4M rebid after 1M-2below shows? Obviously, it should be some sort of very shapely hand, but do you have agreements about what partner needs to make a move towards slam?

Assume we're discussing an auction like
1♥ (Pass) 2♦ (Pass);
4♥
Playing 2/1, I quite like the idea that the game-jump should show a void in partner's suit.
A traditional meaning is: Strong but limited hand. Excellent major suit. 4+ support for responder's suit.
A long time ago, an elegant auction by 2 Scottish internationals impressed me. The auction was only vaguely similar to antonylee's but it illustrates the principle. The players were playing basic Acol and the first 2 bids were at the one-level.
Ian Morrison: ♠ Q J x x ♥ A K Q J x x x ♦ ♣ x x: 1♥ 4♥ 5N
David Liggat: ♠ A K x x ♥ x x ♦ x x x x ♣ A x x: 1♠ 5♣ 7♠

• 4♥ = Should show that partner's reply has improved prospects.
• 5♣ = Cue-bid.
• 5N = "Josephine" GSF.
• 7♠ = Partner must be asking about ♠s not ♥s.

[MrAce]

nige1, on 2015-July-31, 09:45, said:

Assume we're discussing an auction like
1♥ (Pass) 2♦ (Pass);
4♥
Playing 2/1, I quite like the idea that the game-jump should show a void in partner's suit.but limited hand
A traditional meaning is: Strong. Excellent major suit. 4+ support for responder's suit.

Traditional? On earth or on another planet?
Not saying that it is good or bad agreement. I just never heard of this in a 2/1 auction showing 4 card ♦ fit and being traditional. Perhaps it is time for me to read more books.

[GrahamJson]

It was traditional in Acol for a four level rebid to show a great suit and a fit in responer's suit, although not necessarily four cards. The logic was that a very good single suiter would normally open with an Acol two bid, showing eight+ playing tricks. Hence for opener to be worth bidding game the response must have improved his hand.

[Siegmund]

That's a traditional meaning for 1m-1M-4m (in North America), but not for 1M-2m-4M.

***

As to the original question, I would sharpen MrAce's answer to *exactly one trick* too strong to open 4M, after which partner bids exactly as he would after a 4M opening. Not perfect but no accidents that way, at least.

[mikestar13]

The meaning in North American 2 over 1 as I understand it is that 4M when 3M would have set trumps is a picture bid, excellent trumps (usually AKQxxxx or better), values (not necessarily support, Kx would be fine) in partner's suit--and no first- or second-round control in the unbid suits. Partner will usually pass due to lack of controls, but if partner has adequate controls he can freely try for or bid slam without worrying about trump quality.

[Cascade]

mikestar13, on 2015-August-13, 16:22, said:

The meaning in North American 2 over 1 as I understand it is that 4M when 3M would have set trumps is a picture bid, excellent trumps (usually AKQxxxx or better), values (not necessarily support, Kx would be fine) in partner's suit--and no first- or second-round control in the unbid suits. Partner will usually pass due to lack of controls, but if partner has adequate controls he can freely try for or bid slam without worrying about trump quality.

I like this. Maybe the trump strength is too strong and slightly weaker would be better.

Perhaps I am not qualified to answer not being a 2/1 player. In a non 2/1 system I have played the jump as a minimum with extra trumps that wants to play game but doesn't want to strongly suggest slam. I wasn't able to settle on whether no support for partner or some support was best. Perhaps the no side control is too limiting for me. In 2/1 you have a little more flexibility as 2M is forcing.

[Endymion77]

nige1, on 2015-July-31, 09:45, said:

A traditional meaning is: Strong but limited hand. Excellent major suit. 4+ support for responder's suit.

I would take 1M - 2m - 4m as showing this type of hand, and 1M - 2m - 4M as denying fit and minimum (4 controls or less). That seems more traditional to me.