[aguahombre]

"I need directions."
"Where are you going?"
"I don't know."
"Well, you can't get there from here."

[mycroft]

I think it's okay to pass this hand. Swap the black suits, not so much. I probably would open it, but I think it's okay to pass.

Now, if I can open 2♣...I'm doing it.

Opening this hand will likely lead to 1♣-p-1♥-X; whatever I do here isn't going to do anything to the opponents that will be as damaging as p-p-3♥-X; 4♣ or 4♥ (unless all anybody can make is 2M, and it's obvious, I guess).

[beautyleg]

Did those who refused to open 1C know the meaning of "honor card point" and "point"？It's the basic concept all beginners should know very well of bidding, please. And 3H had showed 7cards so you had 9trumps. Those who broasted of how good 4C would be really thought 6cards were much better than 9cards？I am extremely confused that whether it's for intermediate and advanced discussion.

[eagles123]

wow great point mate, what a relief it is to finally have expert analysis on these forums.

[mikeh]

beautyleg, on 2015-August-05, 20:47, said:

Did those who refused to open 1C know the meaning of "honor card point" and "point"？It's the basic concept all beginners should know very well of bidding, please. And 3H had showed 7cards so you had 9trumps. Those who broasted of how good 4C would be really thought 6cards were much better than 9cards？I am extremely confused that whether it's for intermediate and advanced discussion.

Welcome to the forums. It is good to see new posters.

The downside of being new is that you may not be aware of the range of expertise here. For example, none of those who suggested bidding 4C were doing so in order to play in clubs. They did so to show heart support and a good club suit in case partner has a decision to make.

As for whether to open, most posters here would do so, and many would agree with the sentiments expressed by one of our strongest posters....passing in first seat is barking (mad).

[MrAce]

beautyleg, on 2015-August-05, 20:47, said:

Did those who refused to open 1C know the meaning of "honor card point" and "point"？It's the basic concept all beginners should know very well of bidding, please. And 3H had showed 7cards so you had 9trumps. Those who broasted of how good 4C would be really thought 6cards were much better than 9cards？I am extremely confused that whether it's for intermediate and advanced discussion.

Sorry about the 4♣ by regular posters. They often forget the fact that people usually rate themselves at least 1 level higher. Then some experts reply in intermediate adv section but when the level gap turns out to be huge, disappointments and confusions tend to happen.

Let me try to explain. Those who bids 4♣ are not refusing the ♥ fit and trying to play in clubs. As you said this would be very silly thing to do. So they actually mean ♥ support via 4♣. The reason they do not raise hearts (if they decide to act) is that they want club lead in case they end up defending.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2015-August-05, 23:48, said:

Welcome to the forums. It is good to see new posters.

The downside of being new is that you may not be aware of the range of expertise here. For example, none of those who suggested bidding 4C were doing so in order to play in clubs. They did so to show heart support and a good club suit in case partner has a decision to make.

As for whether to open, most posters here would do so, and many would agree with the sentiments expressed by one of our strongest posters....passing in first seat is barking (mad).

Beat me by 1 minute

[beautyleg]

What 4C meaned was not vital at all. They all had no idea they had been on a high level of bidding due to passed 1C and 3H. North would still probably get down even with 9trumps at a lower level. They could obviously not figure out how good 4C or 4H would because they would go on to find north didn't deserve having 4+clubs(so 10+trumps). Most of them just prefer 6cards of clubs to doubleton in hearts.

[diana_eva]

beautyleg, on 2015-August-07, 02:03, said:

What 4C meaned was not vital at all. They all had no idea they had been on a high level of bidding due to passed 1C and 3H. North would still probably get down even with 9trumps at a lower level. They could obviously not figure out how good 4C or 4H would because they would go on to find north didn't deserve having 4+clubs(so 10+trumps). Most of them just prefer 6cards of clubs to doubleton in hearts.

Please read again the replies from MikeH and MrAce, read them several times, and try to understand what they are saying. 4C does not mean let's play clubs.

[wank]

beautyleg, on 2015-August-07, 02:03, said:

What 4C meaned was not vital at all. They all had no idea they had been on a high level of bidding due to passed 1C and 3H. North would still probably get down even with 9trumps at a lower level. They could obviously not figure out how good 4C or 4H would because they would go on to find north didn't deserve having 4+clubs(so 10+trumps). Most of them just prefer 6cards of clubs to doubleton in hearts.

diana_eva, on 2015-August-07, 04:05, said:

Please read again the replies from MikeH and MrAce, read them several times, and try to understand what they are saying. 4C does not mean let's play clubs.

nor Roman Keycard gerber

[kenberg]

Online discussions (of anything) can suffer from unintended ambiguity.

I voted for an immediate raise to 4H. Honestly, I saw the three questions of the title and then, without considering other options, I chose 4H. I completely agree that 4C is better. I just had not given it thought..

Now about the meaning of 4C. First, a different situation.

2H (first position)-X-3C: With some I play this as a heart fit asking for a club lead, with some I play it as showing clubs.

In the current case, the club bidder is a passed hand so it is basically impossible that after a third position 3H opener he has suddenly decided he wants to play 4C.
If the auction had gone 3H (first position)-X-4C I still think it shows, or should show, a heart fit. Undiscussed, I am uneasy.

Back to the given hand. While I have no doubt that I would bid 4H if sleeping and 4C if awake, I am far from confident that it will work out. I think the odds, if not the force, are with me. And I was very surprised by the number of players not opening this either 1C or, if appropriate in their system, 2C. [Post #12 says "5 tables did open 3♣ , 14 passed, 13 opened 1C, 3 opened 2C in polish, precision or similar)" ]. This lends an air of unreality to this because I think that few of us would have passed and so we would not be in this situation. I would open 1C if the Q were the J.

I am curious. What works?

[diana_eva]

kenberg, on 2015-August-07, 06:24, said:

I am curious. What works?

4H makes and was bid at most tables, even after having passed originally. The debate was that: 1) South had a full opener, and should have opened; 2) Having failed to open, he should now raise (or bid 4C, altho this wasnt really discussed as far as i know), 3) At the table the bidding continued with pass, 3S, all pass. So South had a 3rd chance to notice that he has a full opener and raise. All this keeping in mind that 3H at this vul will not be too frisky, even in 3rd. Partnership's style is solid preempts.

This post has been edited by diana_eva: 2015-August-07, 07:00

[beautyleg]

Is it hard to read comments so one should read again and again？My opinion was the full opener and pass to 3H(if the full opener had been passed). What 4C meaned was not vital because their hand was a opener+weak. You said some tables made 4H but I can say even 10hcp make slams in goulash. Meaningful？Do you know 25+points for a 4-level？It's seldom favorable to find a higher contract whether it would be 4H or 4C. Please do not live in scores(you thought they should not miss 4H by afterthought). The process of bids and play is the most important. And then distribution leads to the results.

diana_eva, on 2015-August-07, 04:05, said:

Please read again the replies from MikeH and MrAce, read them several times, and try to understand what they are saying. 4C does not mean let's play clubs.

[eagles123]

because of course you need 25 points to make 4H

[aguahombre]

Or sometimes a bit more to make 1♥.

http://www.bridgehan..._Heart_Hand.htm

[WesleyC]

After reading this thread my conclusion is that "please do not live in scores" needs to become a thing.