Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?
#9461
Posted 2018-February-23, 16:05
#9462
Posted 2018-February-23, 16:19
hrothgar, on 2018-February-23, 16:04, said:
Conspiracy
Money Laundering
Foreign lobbying charges
Causing another to mislead Mueller probe in 2016 and Feb. 2017 - an allegation of obstructive actions while Trump was in office
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The indictment says that Manafort, secretly retained a group of former senior European politicians to take positions favorable to Ukraine, including by lobbying in the United States
Might be interesting to charge these lobbyists with FARA violations and see what else they know.
It seems Mueller's original indictments were just a warning shot with the hopes of getting Manafort to sing. Wouldn't be surprised to hear that he's afraid of flipping lest he or his family got suicided.
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#9463
Posted 2018-February-23, 16:27
nige1, on 2018-February-23, 16:05, said:
Nigel, I don't recall anyone making discriminatory statements about Russians...
Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.
I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.
But please, feel free to prove me wrong...
Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...
#9464
Posted 2018-February-23, 16:38
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Sept 2017:
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#9465
Posted 2018-February-24, 07:45
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Trust, said a photographer, when I asked him the best thing about living in Denmark. If we agree on something, you would live up to that. That confidence, he added, makes everyday life more comfortable.
Theres a lot of social trust, a speechwriter at the culture ministry told me. Farmers putting out their products by the roadside, and then putting a jar and saying, Put money in this. Its very common here, and it works.
Las Olsen, chief economist at Danske Bank, said: We have this high trust, and it is a huge asset. It is very good for productivity that you dont have to spend a lot of time and money checking everything.
Olsen has lived abroad, and when I asked him if it was really that different in Denmark, he said: Oh, yes. When you come from Denmark to other countries you tend to trust people too much. Danes can get ripped off in the beginning. He paused for emphasis. It is a real phenomenon. And it is often one reason why people seem to be happier, and I think that makes sense. Its very detrimental to be cheated, to feel that youre cheated, or that you might be cheated.
And yes, statistics show that the Scandinavian countries are the most trusting places in the world.
...On my first day of interviews, I met with Lars Hvidberg, who works as a speechwriter at the culture ministry. Hvidberg has lived in the U.S., so he seemed well qualified to speculate about the differences between the two countries.
There are basically four stories about Denmark, he said. Heres a breakdown:
The social liberal story: Free education, free speech and democratic government have created social trust and the ability of people to take responsibility and to act for themselves.
The social democracy story: Benefits are high and the taxes are high, which creates equality and trust and enables people to plan for the long term without fear of destitution.
The market liberal story: The real reason Denmark is so successful is that compared to other countries, its actually very classically liberal. It has free trade, low regulation, almost no corruption, and makes it easy to start a company.
The nationalist version: The reason Denmark has a well-functioning society is that its homogeneous, with a lot of people who think the same, and who place a high value on things like work and honesty and trust toward strangers. In other words, Denmark works so well because its full of Danes.
A little apologetically, he said, I believe all of these stories are true.
Americans who look enviously at Denmark generally want to import some of these things. The conservative Heritage Foundation would undoubtedly like the U.S. to copy Denmarks collaborative, low-key approach to business regulation. The progressives who write articles about the cradle-to-grave welfare system would like to copy its generous benefits, and believe that if the U.S. did so, the trust would follow. The emerging U.S. nationalist wing would perhaps like to copy the homogeneity.
But what Hvidberg is suggesting is that these things come in a package. You cant simply pull some elements out and get the same results. And basically all the Danes I spoke to, from far-left Green Party types to market liberals, agreed that Denmark would be hard to replicate without Danes.
I asked Bjornskov if there was some way the U.S. could make itself more trusting. Unfortunately, he told me, the literature is better at showing us how to destroy trust than to build it.
...I think Sanders is right that the U.S. could learn useful things from Scandinavia. Hes just wrong about which things. Danish business regulations and its welfare state cant be successfully imported without first learning to trust one another, and to be trustworthy.
And thats something were all going to have to do together. Which means that whatever Danish-style institutions you like, you cant get them by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with you. These institutions, it turns out, cant be built with policy papers or political activism. They can only be built through better interactions with each other, one neighbor at a time.
We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.
#9466
Posted 2018-February-24, 09:47
y66, on 2018-February-24, 07:45, said:
We can't get Danish-style governance by angrily vilifying the half of the country that disagrees with us? Please pass the Lurpak butter and pickled fish.
Or I could lend you my copy of The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo. Or something from the Harry Hole series. Or the Department Q series. All Danish I think. But I quibble, really I take your point and my limited experience with Danish culture inclines me to believe the description in the article. But then I think all of the Danes I have known have been mathematicians, and mathematicians are honest by nature.
We can, perhaps, learn from other cultures. Every society has its own history, its own problems, its own solutions. Still, it can't hurt to pay a little attention to how others deal with problems.
I tend to trust people. Usually that works out. I make exceptions.
#9467
Posted 2018-February-24, 10:15
kenberg, on 2018-February-24, 09:47, said:
The first is Swedish and the second Norwiegan
Not sure about the third...
#9468
Posted 2018-February-24, 10:20
hrothgar, on 2018-February-23, 16:27, said:
Plenty of complaints about the Russian government, much as there are complaints about the current American government, conservatives, liberals, you name it.
I'll even go so far as to say that some folks might have used the expression "Russians" to refer to the Russian government.
But please, feel free to prove me wrong...
Show me this strong discrimination against the Russian people...
Nigel!
It was just two weeks ago that you were explain how you always "Stood up for truth" and admitted when you made mistakes and wanted to learn...
I'm beginning to believe that these claims weren't completely sincere...
Say that it isn't so...
#9469
Posted 2018-February-24, 11:00
hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 10:15, said:
Not sure about the third...
My error. I have sent off some spit to 23andme and I suppose I will find out I am all wrong about what I thought there as well. (Three quarter Norwegian, I think.)
Anyway I am right on the third.
https://crimefiction...tment-q-series/
I really should have gotten the Dragon Tattoo right since I have read all three of them and (!) seen the Swedish language film. And the English language film, for that matter.
And I was going to mention Kurt Wallander, but he is also Swedish. Oh well.
#9470
Posted 2018-February-24, 12:18
hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 10:20, said:
Hrothgar, you often cast aspersions on my sincerity If you sincerely doubt my impression, then you can waste your own time, searching this thread for adverse "Russian" references. I think that you'll find lots of them and some that specifically refer to businessmen, lawyers, oligarchs, etc.
#9471
Posted 2018-February-24, 13:05
jjbrr, on 2018-February-23, 11:40, said:
Religion has also existed in some form throughout human history, and some neuroscientists even suggest that the capacity for religion is innate, like the capacity for language. But a specific religion has to be indoctrinated -- a child will not become Christian spontaneously.
#9472
Posted 2018-February-24, 13:51
nige1, on 2018-February-24, 12:18, said:
Nigel, you are correct. I have very little respect for you and frequently cast aspersions regarding both your motives and your intelligence.
This latest exchange is a perfect example of why I do so...
I challenged to come up with examples where forum posters are discriminating against the Russian people rather the government.
You come back with "Plenty of examples of people discriminating against Russian oligarchs..."
The Russian government is a kleptocracy.
When people are criticizing Russian oligarchs, they are criticizing the Russian government.
Same with these "businessmen" and "lawyers".
You don't seriously believe that Natalia Veselnitskaya is some independent party who just happened to wander into Trump tower, do you?
FWIW, if you were just some random idiot, I'd probably let things slide.
But you place yourself on such a very high pedestal.
Your almost a poster child for some version of the DunningKruger effect that operates on moral sanctimony rather than intelligence.
#9473
Posted 2018-February-24, 16:33
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#9474
Posted 2018-February-24, 16:34
barmar, on 2018-February-24, 13:05, said:
What's your point? Fairy tales have existed throughout human history with the goal of teaching some lessons. Calling it religion doesn't change what it is.
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#9475
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:21
hrothgar, on 2018-February-24, 13:51, said:
IMO, there appears to be US bias against Russians. Hrothgar is welcome to develop finer distinctions but I have no time to waste researching them. I am entitled to an interest in freedom and justice. I don't claim to be a History or Politics expert .
Some clever people seem to accumulate wisdom with age. We can learn from some of Noam Chomsky's arguments.
https://www.youtube....h?v=5Ni3j1mhU5M
#9476
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:24
As I said, attempts to block this memo were strictly political as it shows the lengths republicans went to make up a narrative that their rube supporters could get fired up about. There was never a security threat.
Gowdy and Nunes are strictly party over country. Pure, unadulterated pieces of garbage. They want an authoritarian government as much as Dear Leader.
Carter Page seems to be a useless idiot.
Fox News requires a few hours to spin their talking points to match their narrative. They seem to be on board with the idea that Nunes is a piece of ***** right now. I'm sure Hannity will somehow figure out a way to blame this on Hillary or Obama or pizzagate or the kids in Florida with enough preparation.
Chris Steele is a legitimate source of information. The DOJ and FBI are doing their jobs. The courts are doing their jobs. There is no partisan conspiracy.
I'm sure more will come, but this is a huge LOL to the GOP. Try harder to save the sinking ship, you rats.
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#9477
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:25
nige1, on 2018-February-24, 17:21, said:
Some clever people seem to accumulate wisdom with age. We can learn from Noam Chomsky.
https://www.youtube....h?v=5Ni3j1mhU5M
then stop posting. thanks
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#9478
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:29
nige1, on 2018-February-24, 17:21, said:
So, your claim is "pure as the driven snow", just really stupid and lazy?
#9479
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:46
Link
Adam Schiff says that the DOJ has corroborated the Carter Page section of the Steele dossier. What does that section claim?
Memo quote - Steele dossier quote
- Page had a secret meeting with Igor Sechin - Rosneft Prez
- Sechin offered brokerage of Rosneft sale to Trump team
- Page had a secret meeting with Divyekin.
- Divyekin told Page that the Kremlin had incriminating info on Clinton.
- Divyekin hinted to Page that the Kremlin had kompromat on Trump.
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And six months later, Russia bought back a large chunk of the sale: "Russia to buy back Rosneft stake it sold"
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#9480
Posted 2018-February-24, 17:58
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