[Jinksy]

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Play whatever system you might realistically play, subject to it having these two first bids.

Is there any sensible way to judge to find the slam from here?

(Per Akwoo's suggestion, can you equally stay out of it with E's majors switched?)

[eagles123]

assuming 3n shows some gf balanced hand then surely west should make another try

[Cyberyeti]

1♣-3N(3343 13-15)
4♦(nat, 4-5 or more extreme, slammish)-4♥(kickback♦)
5♠(2+Q+♠void)-6♦

We would actually bid this 1♣-1♦-3♠ etc as the hand is slightly sub minimum for 3N

[akwoo]

I think we should require that whatever sequence you come up with avoids slam if East has spades and hearts switched.

[Cyberyeti]

akwoo, on 2016-March-05, 15:24, said:

I think we should require that whatever sequence you come up with avoids slam if East has spades and hearts switched.

Difficult, Qxx, void, AKQ8, KQ10xxx is not a bad slam, so I think you bid it anyway.

Once you bid 3N I don't think there's the space available for fine distinction.

We might avoid it after 1♣-1♦-3♥ rather than 1♣-1♦-3♠ (or if E has the majors switched) as we play these as void splinters with a bid of the agreed suit showing a very unsuitable hand. With KQx of the splinter suit rather than Kxx and no shape, you might do this.

[ggwhiz]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-05, 14:45, said:

1♣-3N(3343 13-15)
4♦(nat, 4-5 or more extreme, slammish)-4♥(kickback♦)
5♠(2+Q+♠void)-6♦

We would actually bid this 1♣-1♦-3♠ etc as the hand is slightly sub minimum for 3N

I play much the same in that 3nt promises any 4x3 shape (decent 12-15 and this qualifies) but then after 3nt, 4♣ asks for the 4-card suit.

After that, 4♦ turns the west hand on, spade cue, club cue and east should go slamming hopefully with a heart cue over 5♦ and not stepping on the 6nt banana peel! We would wrong side this for a heart lead through the potential Kxx but thems the breaks.

[Cyberyeti]

ggwhiz, on 2016-March-05, 15:56, said:

I play much the same in that 3nt promises any 4x3 shape (decent 12-15 and this qualifies) but then after 3nt, 4♣ asks for the 4-card suit.

We play 1any-3N as 4m333 but without 4 card support ergo in this case the 4 is specifically diamonds.

[jogs]

Jinksy, on 2016-March-05, 14:37, said:

---

Play whatever system you might realistically play, subject to it having these two first bids.

Is there any sensible way to judge to find the slam from here?

(Per Akwoo's suggestion, can you equally stay out of it with E's majors switched?)

Flip the spades and hearts.
♠ KQ8
♥ K85
♦ T942
♣ A42

Is slam clear-cut?

[kenberg]

I withdraw my thoughts here

[Phil]

Playing 3N as this hand type is really awkward even though it's basically standard. Don't be surprised if you can't bid accurately after this start.

[WesleyC]

It's not unreasonable to play that opener's new suit over 3NT shows serious slam interest and a shortage.

This makes sense given that if opener is exploring for slam, they will usually have a shapely hand with long clubs and responder will always have at least club tolerance.

On the actual hand, responder has a minimum but a dubious spade stopper so they might try 5C. Opener should then assume responder holds at least 10 HCPs outside of spades and raise to 6.

Holding reversed majors, responder would signoff in 4NT and play there.

[lycier]

It is no problem for responder to bid 3nt directly with 4333 and 12hcp, obviously 3NT would be good for protected ♠K. If you object to such bidding style, I am afraid you would loss more in many cases.

[Jinksy]

Phil, on 2016-March-05, 22:43, said:

Playing 3N as this hand type is really awkward even though it's basically standard. Don't be surprised if you can't bid accurately after this start.

I'm not crazy about it, but it seems like if you jam it through a normal GF bid you'll potentially overload those sequences unless you introduce a lot of artificiality of the sort that I'm trying to get rid of. How do you bid them? And do you have a better use for the 3N jump?

I have thought about using 1♣ P 3♥ to deal with all hands of this type. Atm for us, 3♥, 3♠ and 3N are all balanced with a 3-point range, no 4cM and no 5cm and, but missing a stop in the unbid suit - but it doesn't feel like we'd lose much by concealing the info. If opps can't overcall 1♥ or X 3♥ we're probably safe from a heart lead, and we have room to cue 3♠ as a stop ask. That would give us some more space here, though I don't think bidding the slam would become trivial.

[Cyberyeti]

Jinksy, on 2016-March-08, 07:05, said:

I'm not crazy about it, but it seems like if you jam it through a normal GF bid you'll potentially overload those sequences unless you introduce a lot of artificiality of the sort that I'm trying to get rid of. How do you bid them? And do you have a better use for the 3N jump?

I have thought about using 1♣ P 3♥ to deal with all hands of this type. Atm for us, 3♥, 3♠ and 3N are all balanced with a 3-point range, no 4cM and no 5cm and, but missing a stop in the unbid suit - but it doesn't feel like we'd lose much by concealing the info. If opps can't overcall 1♥ or X 3♥ we're probably safe from a heart lead, and we have room to cue 3♠ as a stop ask. That would give us some more space here, though I don't think bidding the slam would become trivial.

What is your 1♣ and structure over it ? simply starting 1♣-1♦ makes it not difficult particularly if the club actually shows clubs.

[Zelandakh]

Jinksy, on 2016-March-08, 07:05, said:

I'm not crazy about it, but it seems like if you jam it through a normal GF bid you'll potentially overload those sequences unless you introduce a lot of artificiality of the sort that I'm trying to get rid of. How do you bid them? And do you have a better use for the 3N jump?

Responding a diamond and rebidding 3NT does not seem so artificial and you get other options along the way if it turns out Opener is strong. Another reasonable option is to play a natural game-forcing 2NT response and bid the invitational hands the long way.

For a better natural use, how about 3343 (or 3334 if that is moe awkward for your system structure) with 16-17hcp, which is a generally more awakward hand type than 13-15? You could obviously instead choose some artificial club raise or just make your ace ask a level lower.

[Jinksy]

Cyberyeti, on 2016-March-08, 07:15, said:

What is your 1♣ and structure over it ? simply starting 1♣-1♦ makes it not difficult particularly if the club actually shows clubs.

Yeah, maybe should have posted it before asking, but I figured I could adapt any suggestions I liked. It's still the second one from this thread.

Our 1♣ opening is 14+ with clubs or 15+ any bal (except 5cM), so says very little about clubs. Our 3N response is nat, 10-12, no 4cM but with semi-stops in both majors, and promising at least 3 clubs.

[Jinksy]

WesleyC, on 2016-March-07, 07:29, said:

It's not unreasonable to play that opener's new suit over 3NT shows serious slam interest and a shortage.

I like this idea. It's relatively simple, which is a plus given its rarity, and prob makes a lot of distributional hands easier to bid, while balanced opposite balanced can fend for themselves ok with a quantitative raise. Since (per my comment immediately above) 3N promised something in spades that's unlikely to be the ace, responder needn't be too discouraged by the wasted K, since he almost has the values for his bid without it, and opener should have taken the waste of at least a couple of HCP into account already.