[kenberg]

After 2♣-2♦ waiting it could also go
2♣-2♦
2♥-4♦
4♠-5♣
5♦-5♥
5♠=?

The 5♦ asks responder for more. After showing the club ace, the stiff diamond, the four trump he bids 5♥ to say he doesn't see that he has any more. 5♠ says 6♥ is a done deal, and look again to consider 7. I think 7♥ can now be bid.

I am not entirely sure that we should not have reached 7 even with my raise of 2♥ to 3♥ but I am not fussing.

I am not out to build a case against the positive 2♦ response but I have not so far seen it as a crucial tool. For this hand I think that if partner and I had more previous discussion we would have managed. Often the issue is whether we make the most of the conventional agreements we have on hand, and I think that this applies here.

[Phil]

kenberg, on 2016-March-07, 07:54, said:

You are saying that 3♣shows hearts only? It once showed hearts and clubs.This would help solve the crowding problem that 3♥ causes. I am not playing Kokish with this particular partner but I have played it. The 3♣ still shows clubs and hearts as I now play Kokish, but I am open minded.

Yes and its very common now.

This allows responder to make 2nd negative with 3 ♦ or cheaply support hearts with 3 ♥

[nullve]

Phil, on 2016-March-07, 13:52, said:

This allows responder to make 2nd negative with 3 ♦ or cheaply support hearts with 3 ♥

This is true whether 3♣ shows 6+ H or 5+H4+C.

[Phil]

nullve, on 2016-March-07, 15:10, said:

This is true whether 3♣ shows 6+ H or 5+H4+C.

Yes, but it's more likely we have a heart fit when opener has 6, and it's a way more common hand than a heart club 2 Suiter.

[WesleyC]

I've experimented with a bunch of different methods over strong 2C and always end up coming back to 2D waiting (followed by Kokish relay).

After a strong 2C, the two most important considerations are:

1. Giving opener enough room to describe their hand.
2. Right-siding the final contract.

2D waiting achieves both of these objectives a lot better than any other method.

[kenberg]

WesleyC, on 2016-March-07, 18:59, said:

I've experimented with a bunch of different methods over strong 2C and always end up coming back to 2D waiting (followed by Kokish relay).

After a strong 2C, the two most important considerations are:

1. Giving opener enough room to describe their hand.
2. Right-siding the final contract.

2D waiting achieves both of these objectives a lot better than any other method.

Let me take this a step further. What do you (or others) think is now the best approach with better hands, assuming 2♦ would be waiting.
Forgetting Kokish for the moment and going back to Aces Scientific, then:

2♣-2M shows at least KQxxx, and need not have further extra strength.

2♣-3♦ is stronger. Either KQxxxx or KQxxx and an outside K.

2♣-3♣ is less disciplined. This is because if we start with 2♦, it will be impossible to bid clubs naturally:
2♣-2♦-2NT-3♣ is Stayman and 2♣-2♦-2M-3♣ is a second negative.
For that matter, 4♣ over 2NT is probably Gerber, and 4♣ over 2M is a splinter.
So, if clubs are to be introduced naturally by responder, it had better be immediately over the 2♣.
So 2♣-3♣ shows a decent suit and some values, but is less precise than the other choices over 2♣.

There are, of course, many more details in Bobby Goldman's book. It often seems to me that for the general player such as myself, and this is the I/A Forum not the expert Forum, the best thing is to simply take an expert's approach and to agree with partner to do it that way. But of course Goldman's book is some forty years old, so I imagine there have been some improvements.

Speaking of improvements, the 3♣ rebid to show hearts after the Kokish relay sounds like a substantial improvement to me. I am still a little wary of the Kokish convention, but this gadget helps a lot. And Kokish does solve a real problem. Not exactly a frequent problem, at least not with the cards I get dealt, but a real problem when it comes up.

Anyway, references to details of how to proceed would be welcome.

[mgoetze]

kenberg, on 2016-March-08, 08:07, said:

2♣-3♣ is less disciplined. This is because if we start with 2♦, it will be impossible to bid clubs naturally:

2♣-2♦-2M-3♣ is a second negative.

Or you could just not waste bids to describe hands that have no practical relevance (yarboroughs are less common in real life than in anecdotes).

[Zelandakh]

Although it is more common from Opener, some also play that 2♣ - 3♦ denies a 4 card major and 2♣ - 3M shows that major plus longer diamonds. I have never played the 3♣ negative rebid thing and the (over here) more traditional 2NT negative seems to work well enough without the issue you raised of never being able to bid clubs naturally. On some hands you can use 2NT as a relay too because you can handle any response without misleading partner. After 2♣ - 2♦; 2NT, I would suggest simply playing the same methods as after a 2NT opening whatever they happen to be.

One final point, the easiest method I have played was 2♦ positive, 2♥ double-negative and others semi-positive, except that if I had my way we would have included the balanced semi-positive in the 2♦ response. Taking the unbalanced semi-positives out of the waiting 2♦ seems to simplify the auction in many cases.