[gordontd]

 WesleyC, on 2016-April-25, 01:08, said:

In 1st/2nd seat playing standard you've got an easy 1D opening planning to rebid 2NT over 2C. The rebid problem only exists in the context of weak 1NT.

That suggests to me that, if you are going to avoid missing a major suit fit, you will have to respond in a four-card major rather than a six-card minor with invitational values. That's not entirely unproblematic.

And of course the 2nt rebid is already problematic since you risk getting overboard if played as forcing, as defined in SAYC, or not knowing when to bid on if it's 12-14 and can be passed.

[msjennifer]

With a regular partner,since all the HCP are in majors I open the given hand 1S in all positions.Reverse the holding in major suits and I open 1H. As per this scheme you get the wanted opening lead and also avoid rebid problems in an approach oriented standard system.

[Tramticket]

 WesleyC, on 2016-April-25, 01:08, said:

In 1st/2nd seat playing standard you've got an easy 1D opening planning to rebid 2NT over 2C. The rebid problem only exists in the context of weak 1NT.

Not entirely true - make the Jack of Diamonds into the Queen, or even the King, and you have a problem in a strong NT system.

But I a agree that the problem of 4441 hands with a singleton club can be worse in a weak NT system.

[Vampyr]

 msjennifer, on 2016-April-25, 00:06, said:

Whether playing a standard system or Precision,a 2 C response is forcing and promises one more bid.

The latter is not true in any of my partnerships, but even if this is your agreement it is probably off when partner is a passed hand.

Quote

I shall bid 2 H which is NOT a reverse bid since partner has forced me.

Well, it is a reverse, but you are free to define it as not promising extra values if you really want to.

[Vampyr]

Please delete.

[PhilG007]

Obviously 1♦ and over a 1NT response,pass. Partner has denied a four card major,
made a limited response and since you also are minimum,there is no point in proceeding
any further...indeed it would be foolish to do so.

[gordontd]

 PhilG007, on 2016-April-25, 05:39, said:

Obviously 1♦ and over a 1NT response,pass.

That wasn't the question.

[PhilG007]

 gordontd, on 2016-April-25, 05:55, said:

That wasn't the question.

???? The poster asked the question "what do you open here?" And I gave my answer

[Zelandakh]

 PhilG007, on 2016-April-25, 07:07, said:

???? The poster asked the question "what do you open here?" And I gave my answer

They also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later.

[PhilG007]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-April-25, 07:20, said:

They also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later.

In that case,I would rebid 2NT. Not happy about the singleton club but since you are compelled to rebid,its the only
sensible bid in the circumstances.

[Tramticket]

The 2NT rebid doesn't just overstate the number of clubs, it also overstates the strength of the hand (promising 15+ and forcing to game opposite a possible 10 HCP).

There is no way round this, you have to tell a lie. Either you open a major showing a five-card suit in the major; or you open 1D and rebid 2D over 2C promising a 5-card diamond suit; or you open 1NT which is in the correct no trump range but you have a singleton trump; or you open 1D and rebid 2NT as above. Even worse is to open 1S/1H and rebid 2NT - deceiving partner about the number of cards in the major and the honour strength!

Nothing is attractive and I believe the least lie is to lie about suit length in the minors - at least you are only playing the possible 4-2 "fit" at the two-level!

[rhm]

 WesleyC, on 2016-April-24, 08:23, said:

At MPs in 3rd seat, opening this hand anything other than 1♠ is criminal.

What a nonsense.
Why agree playing 5 card majors if you do not intent to do so?

Quote

The 1♠ bid takes away the opponents chance to bid at the 1 level and will get our side off to the winning lead whenever LHO wins the auction.

Looks to me as if we have everything covered at the one-level. Sometimes it can be a clever idea to take away the opponents chance to bid at the 1 level, unfortunately on some other hand.
With a good opener I do not distort my opening bid for the sole purpose of indicating a lead, whether I am in first, second third or fourth position.

Rainer Herrmann.

[rhm]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-April-25, 07:20, said:

They also posed the follow-up question: "Partner responds 2C. What is your rebid?" The question of a 1NT response came much later.

What is the problem of a 2♣ response to 1♦?
Partner has no 4 card major, nor did he raise diamonds, which he should with 4 cards, no 4 card major and an unbalanced hand.
He would not bid 2♣ with a balanced hand, knowing that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand, so partner should have 6 cards in clubs.
Accept that this hand is a misfit and pass.

Rainer Herrmann

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2016-April-25, 08:31, said:

What is the problem of a 2♣ response to 1♦?
Partner has no 4 card major

What ?

Qxxx, xx, Kx, AJ10xx would be 1♦-2♣ to many acol players (who can bid 2♠ over 2♦ safe in the knowledge they're limited by failure to open)

[rhm]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-April-25, 08:47, said:

What ?

Qxxx, xx, Kx, AJ10xx would be 1♦-2♣ to many acol players (who can bid 2♠ over 2♦ safe in the knowledge they're limited by failure to open)

You conveniently ignore that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand.
Accordingly a 2♣ bid should deny a 4 card major unless you do not mind playing clubs even if opener has four spades.
The logic is similar to responding to a takeout DBL.
You do not respond in a longer minor with an unbid major.

Rainer Herrmann

[Zelandakh]

 rhm, on 2016-April-25, 08:31, said:

He would not bid 2♣ with a balanced hand, knowing that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand, so partner should have 6 cards in clubs.

Would you really prefer a 2NT response with 10⁺-11 and 3334/(332)5? That strikes me as being at least as dangerous. There is merit in the approach you advocate - it is essentially how my system works - but I am not so sure it is so successful in this natural context as when the responses are designed around it.

[Cyberyeti]

 rhm, on 2016-April-25, 08:56, said:

You conveniently ignore that 2♣ is not forcing by a passed hand.
Accordingly a 2♣ bid should deny a 4 card major unless you do not mind playing clubs even if opener has four spades.
The logic is similar to responding to a takeout DBL.
You do not respond in a longer minor with an unbid major.

Rainer Herrmann

We play it forcing as do most people I know, we don't distort our system that much.

[msjennifer]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-April-25, 09:40, said:

We play it forcing as do most people I know, we don't distort our system that much.

We also play it as one round forcing whether a passed hand or not.we also don't like to twist and turn the system.In my opinion any system that proves right in 90 percent of unopposed bidding is an excellent bidding system..Any system in the world
can not bid all hands perfectly.Garozzos Super Precision system comes very near to the objective.

[zgrywus]

I would open 1♦, and if played w/polish standards/players rebid 2NT over 2♣which shows precisely 11-14(15) 4441, if 2Nt is not an option I have to rebid 2♦.

[akwoo]

I'm happy to open 1H and and rebid 2N over 2C, treating the hand as being worth 15 even though it's not. Take away a J or even TS and I have a problem.