[nige1]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-19, 10:02, said:

As to the play - well this was the full deal (rotated to match actual positions):
I led a trump to partner's Ace. If he'd returned another trump, we could have come to three club tricks before declarer can set up hearts, so contract goes down. But can you blame him for returning a heart, or me for not ducking the Ace? 3♠x made. OK we didn't find the right defence, but my point is, I was given an impossibly difficult position during bidding. The wide variety of suggestions given on this thread, testifies to this. As Neilkaz says, a 3-3 fit in 4♥ would have been - ahem - interesting .

---

AFAIR, in last Sat's Jec v BBO match, Garozzo brilliantly bid and made 3N on a similar hand to E's, when the auction started something like 2M (Pass) 3M to him.

[miamijd]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-19, 10:02, said:

As to the play - well this was the full deal (rotated to match actual positions):

---

I led a trump to partner's Ace. If he'd returned another trump, we could have come to three club tricks before declarer can set up hearts, so contract goes down. But can you blame him for returning a heart, or me for not ducking the Ace? 3♠x made. OK we didn't find the right defence, but my point is, I was given an impossibly difficult position during bidding. The wide variety of suggestions given on this thread, testifies to this. As Neilkaz says, a 3-3 fit in 4♥ would have been - ahem - interesting .

No you aren't nuts; your partner is. Very much so, in fact.

First, his double is just awful. He has all of 10 HCP outside spades, 4333, and no source of tricks. Is he going to be happy when you bid 4x? Certainly not. Is he happy when you pass the X? Not really; he has only 2 defensive tricks. He ought to pass. If he wants to be insanely aggressive, then he should bid 3NT. At least that has a chance to do some good. Double is going to be disastrous more often than not. If you are weak, your side is up the creek. If you have a decent hand, you likely belong in 3NT, but you'll never be able to bid it.

There is a very simple solution to someone who suggests a 3NT call with your hand. Smile; say "I didn't think of that" very politely; and after the event, promptly find a new partner.

And yes, I can blame your partner for returning a heart at trick 2. Another trump is blitheringly obvious. It's highly unlikely declarer has only 2 clubs, because with 5 clubs and two small spades, you would have bid 4C. Likewise, declarer probably has at least 3H, because with 4H, you probably would have bid 4H. So declarer ought to be 6313, and your side needs to prevent a club ruff.

As for your not ducking the AH, that only helps if you then duck a second round of H, win the third round, and switch to a diamond. That is very tough to find at the table.

Cheers,
Mike

[msjennifer]

neilkaz, on 2016-September-19, 08:54, said:

I have such happy memories from a couple weeks ago of playing in a 3-3 fit after bidding 4H with a similar hand.

No point in telling funny stories.Doubling 3 S as a take out with only a 3 carded hearts ,iis what even beginners will not.Did the doubler want to only compete at 4 level in MINORS? And if he wanted to play a minor suit game he would bid 4NT.With a doubleton spade ,only 3 hearts and only 8 cards(4/4 )in minors, only a lunatic will make a TOD over 3S opposite a passed hand .partner.If you don't like the 4 heart bid it's only polite to say ,"I don't agree".I am confidently saying so as We NEVER make a TOD without 4 decent cards in hearts over 3 S level preempting bid by opponents ,which please note.

[msjennifer]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-19, 10:02, said:

As to the play - well this was the full deal (rotated to match actual positions):

---

I led a trump to partner's Ace. If he'd returned another trump, we could have come to three club tricks before declarer can set up hearts, so contract goes down. But can you blame him for returning a heart, or me for not ducking the Ace? 3♠x made. OK we didn't find the right defence, but my point is, I was given an impossibly difficult position during bidding. The wide variety of suggestions given on this thread, testifies to this. As Neilkaz says, a 3-3 fit in 4♥ would have been - ahem - interesting .

Perhaps, East was playing for peanuts.With 8 losers he wants to compete at 4 level opposite a passed partner.Perhaps,he meant it as a penalty double as played perhaps in ancient days.

[Kaitlyn S]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-19, 10:02, said:

If he'd returned another trump, we could have come to three club tricks before declarer can set up hearts, so contract goes down. But can you blame him for returning a heart

Yes. But not until after the game

[MrAce]

msjennifer, on 2016-September-19, 21:39, said:

No point in telling funny stories.Doubling 3 S as a take out with only a 3 carded hearts ,iis what even beginners will not.Did the doubler want to only compete at 4 level in MINORS? And if he wanted to play a minor suit game he would bid 4NT.With a doubleton spade ,only 3 hearts and only 8 cards(4/4 )in minors, only a lunatic will make a TOD over 3S opposite a passed hand .partner.If you don't like the 4 heart bid it's only polite to say ,"I don't agree".I am confidently saying so as We NEVER make a TOD without 4 decent cards in hearts over 3 S level preempting bid by opponents ,which please note.

He is not telling funny stories. There are so many things that you wrote which are completely inaccurate.

• It is not opposite a passed hand. This term is used for hands that are coming from pass. Pd is not coming from pass. Passing 2♠ and coming from pass are two very different things.
• Doubling 3♠ in no way guarantees a 4 card ♥. It can be one of 3 things A-I have unbid suits and values.(usually has 4h) B-I am too strong to overcall, which means the doubler can have stiff or void ♥ for that matter. C-Balanced strong hand without stopper.

A- 1435 1345 1453 1444 13+hcp. Hands with only 3 ♥ tends to have more hcp, without 4h some people tend to pass with 13 or even 14

B- Ax A AKJxxx AQxx or x AK AKxx AQxxxx etc

C- xxx KQJ AKJx AQx

All these hand types will double 3♠. You can not possibly pass with those hands because you will make game opposite a zero hcp and 5-6 card even a 4 card suit. You can not overcall with them. Some people overcall upto 19 and even stretch to 20 but 21+ is way too much to stretch it.

So if you are never making a T/O double without decent 4 cards ♥ vs 3♠ preempts as you said. I strongly suggest you to work on T/O doubles. Doubles are way too valuable tool to spare them for picture bids.

On the original hand that OP posted, however, I agree that East does not have a double.

[helene_t]

billw55, on 2016-September-19, 12:31, said:

IMO east doesn't have his bid.

This.

But actually, the fact that he doubled with such a defensive hand is why pass by West ought to be successful. If East had had a real t/o double, pass probably wouldn't work well.

That said, I don't think West's pass is terrible at matchpoints.

[MrAce]

helene_t, on 2016-September-20, 03:02, said:

This.

But actually, the fact that he doubled with such a defensive hand is why pass by West ought to be successful. If East had had a real t/o double, pass probably wouldn't work well.

That said, I don't think West's pass is terrible at matchpoints.

If East had a take out dbl and they are on a 9 card fit, passing is bad. If East has a textbook take out DBL shape and they are on a 10 card fit at 3 level, passing is terrible.

EW had a terrible score even after the double turned out to be more like penalty than take out double. You figure how terrible pass is vs a real take out.

[wank]

i don't hate pass. there are certain opps you can trust not to have a 10 card fit here. if opps don't have a 10 card fit, your chances of 300 or even 500 are pretty good which rates to be the best score available if you can't make game. i do hate bidding 4m because partner's not going to raise and you'll miss lots of those games - 10 is a lot of points opposite a 3 level takeout double, especially when p has a doubleton spade you expect at least 16 points.

personally, i'd go for 4H - trying to make game on a hoped for 4-3 fit with the force being taken in the short hand. playing a level lower looks very worth it - because you'll often have 3 fast losers.

to lose 12 imps i'm guessing you must have misdefended and let it make.

obv partner's double was terrible.

[nullve]

MrAce, on 2016-September-19, 07:29, said:

I think passers deserve to find pd with a hand that was too strong to start overcall. Something like

A
KQxx
AK
Axxxxx

or

A
KQxx
AKxxxx
Ax

If I do A, something terrible might happen to me.
I do A.
Therefore, I deserve that something terrible happens to me.

[msjennifer]

MrAce, on 2016-September-19, 22:56, said:

He is not telling funny stories. There are so many things that you wrote which are completely inaccurate.

• It is not opposite a passed hand. This term is used for hands that are coming from pass. Pd is not coming from pass. Passing 2♠ and coming from pass are two very different things.
• Doubling 3♠ in no way guarantees a 4 card ♥. It can be one of 3 things A-I have unbid suits and values.(usually has 4h) B-I am too strong to overcall, which means the doubler can have stiff or void ♥ for that matter. C-Balanced strong hand without stopper.

A- 1435 1345 1453 1444 13+hcp. Hands with only 3 ♥ tends to have more hcp, without 4h some people tend to pass with 13 or even 14

B- Ax A AKJxxx AQxx or x AK AKxx AQxxxx etc

C- xxx KQJ AKJx AQx

All these hand types will double 3♠. You can not possibly pass with those hands because you will make game opposite a zero hcp and 5-6 card even a 4 card suit. You can not overcall with them. Some people overcall upto 19 and even stretch to 20 but 21+ is way too much to stretch it.

So if you are never making a T/O double without decent 4 cards ♥ vs 3♠ preempts as you said. I strongly suggest you to work on T/O doubles. Doubles are way too valuable tool to spare them for picture bids.

On the original hand that OP posted, however, I agree that East does not have a double.

I would like to politely inform you that I know all the various holdings, on which aTOD over 3S are made, as described by you and some more too are known to us.The later bid by the takeout doubler make it clear.However,it is not possible to write a whole chapter on these TOD's in this column.I made the statement for hands which occur commonly and are not too unbalanced.Make the hand actually shown to be something like S-xx,H-AQJx,D-KJxx,C-KQx ,and similar which I was writing about.We already do have better bidding methods for other hands which are distributional in nature and which have no relation to the no. Of cards held in heart suit.,and those methods have been devised by us after going through hundreds ( literally) of hands from world championships which were held from 1962 onwards.Howver,it was really nice of you to have made the suggestion.

[661_Pete]

Whilst I appreciate the messages of support, I don't want folks to come down too hard on my then partner. Please! OK we agree he got it wrong that time. I've done worse! So, probably, have many of you....

What I was looking for, was suggestions for how to escape should that situation arise again. I've got some, now. Bear in mind that, in Acol at any rate, probably in other systems, weak two opening followed by a takeout double is a very common sequence: it's probably the commonest outcome after a weak two. And it usually brings results: the oppo can find a fit or settle in 3NT. But the problem here, is a double after a raise to three. Makes it infinitely more tricky!

Thanks all.

[Phil]

Pretty close between pass and 4c. I'd bet the expected imps are super close.

[miamijd]

661_Pete, on 2016-September-20, 16:05, said:

Whilst I appreciate the messages of support, I don't want folks to come down too hard on my then partner. Please! OK we agree he got it wrong that time. I've done worse! So, probably, have many of you....

What I was looking for, was suggestions for how to escape should that situation arise again. I've got some, now. Bear in mind that, in Acol at any rate, probably in other systems, weak two opening followed by a takeout double is a very common sequence: it's probably the commonest outcome after a weak two. And it usually brings results: the oppo can find a fit or settle in 3NT. But the problem here, is a double after a raise to three. Makes it infinitely more tricky!

Thanks all.

In 2/1, Precision, ACOL, or any other system that uses weak 2M bids, 2S p 3S (X) is common enough. The X here generally shows short spades. Remember that when the opponents preempt, your expected length is 2 (for a 3-level bid) or 2.33 (for a 2-level bid). You should strive to take action if you are short in the opponents suit and be cautious with length.

In this auction, the doubler will generally have a shapely hand with 0-2 spades and support for the unbids (yes, he might have 2S, 4H, and be 25 or 52 in the minors). Rarely, he might have 46 ih H and D intending to correct 4C to 4D (equal level conversion). Either way, he needs a decent hand. Or the doubler could have a true one-suited moose, but that's even more rare, as most really good one-suited hands are generally suitable for a 4H or 5m bid.

Yes, there are certain hands where the doubler will have 3 or even 4 spades, but they are so rare as to almost be non-existent.

So what do you do with your hand after this auction? You can't bid 3NT; you don't have a stop. You shouldn't bid 4H; you will be on a 4-3 fit vs. preempting opponents; not good (H aren't likely to break). So your choices are pass for penalties or 4C (your clubs are better than your diamonds, so you are less likely to be Xed in 4C).

Either bid is reasonable. But at this vulnerability, I would pass, especially at MPs. The opponents have 9 spades; you have 8-9 clubs. If you can make 10 tricks in clubs, I would wager a large sum the opponents cannot make 9 tricks in spades. +200 beats any club partial. And if the opponents can make their contract, you will be down at least one (likely doubled) and maybe two (almost certainly doubled) at 4C. -500 and -530 are likely to be the same round number.

As it happens, 3S goes -1 for +100. 4C goes set two, though undoubled (neither opp can X) for -200. Which score would you rather have?

Cheers,
mike