[Stephen Tu]

---

Take it from here. Playing standard natural system with no special gadgetry at this juncture.

If you manage to make it to 6d, how confident are you that you aren't getting overboard at various points making the same choices if partner's hand is quite different, less suitable, but still matches the prior auction?
(e.g. 2nt/3nt when 1nt/2nt was the limit, 5d/6d down when 3nt was the limit)

[spotlight7]

1D-1H-2S-3D*(Lebensohl style so game force)-3H(3 card support)-3NT trying to slow things down-I tend to pass here


Bidding every slam means you go down in too many over bid slams.


Partner has a magic hand for you, xxx of spades suggests you are going down in slam.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

1D - 1H
1S (1) - 1NT
2C (2) - 3NT (3)
Pass (4) - ...

(1) you need to decide, if you want to force to game, most likely not
(2) FSF, what ever you want to call it, not GF
(3) max., club stopper, denies a 5th heart, stopper take precedence over
support for openers minor
(4) will make, we have 8 tricks, and partner needs only to stop clubs



With kind regards
Marlowe

[Stephen Tu]

Is 1d-1h-1s-1nt-2c artificial without prior agreement or is it 4=0=5=4?

[nige1]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-May-01, 22:03, said:

Take it from here. Playing standard natural system with no special gadgetry at this juncture.
If you manage to make it to 6d, how confident are you that you aren't getting overboard at various points
making the same choices if partner's hand is quite different, less suitable, but still matches the prior auction?
(e.g. 2nt/3nt when 1nt/2nt was the limit, 5d/6d down when 3nt was the limit)

An unconvincing effort....
Prefer a 1♠ rebid to 2♠
Opener is likely to be shapely, so slightly prefer responder's 3♦ jump preference to 1N.
Slightly prefer openenr's 4♦ slam try to passing 3N.
Responder has already done more than enough.
6♦ is a bit of a punt.

---

[Cyberyeti]

1♦(4+)-1♥
1♠(5♦/4♠ unless 4144)-3♦(don't like 1N/2N as feel heavy for 1, light for the 2, so show values and support, may get to bid 3N later)
3♥-3N
5♣(exclusion)-5♥(1)
5♠-6♦

The only danger is that partner has ♥xxxx (or Qxxx and there's a ruff) and you go off in 5, or he has Q, AKxx, xxxx, Q10xx and 7 is cold

Part of the reason for not bidding NT at responders second bid is that we habitually open fairly light, if partner passes 2N this is likely to be bad, 1N is a bit of an underbid, 3♦ expresses my values and shape and I may well be able to show the club stop later.

[P_Marlowe]

Stephen Tu, on 2017-May-02, 01:32, said:

Is 1d-1h-1s-1nt-2c artificial without prior agreement or is it 4=0=5=4?

...

I was taught to play european, brithish style / Acol influenced, bidding the 4th suit is
commonly artifical, it may be natural, there are some circumstances, I never really bothered,
it is possible, but it is for sure forcing.
And if the 1NT rebid range is 6-10, you need a cheap bid, that acts as an common on signal.
But I do believe as well, that this may well be a matter, where you are brought up, sometimes
I joke, players from N/A get more 5440 hands than I usually pick up.

Now if responder wants to cater for a natural club suit, he may raise the suit, which will get
you to an auction like
1D - 1H
1S - 1NT
2C (1) - 3C (2)
3D (3) - 3NT ...

(1) not GF
(2) ... should be GF, without GF values, responder should bid 2D, raising the 4th suit without discussion
is murky at best, but it showes GF values, it should definitely deny a 5th heart
(3) what else, we are in a GF

With kind regards
Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

nige1, on 2017-May-02, 02:53, said:

An unconvincing effort....
Prefer a 1♠ rebid to 2♠
Opener is likely to be shapely, so slightly prefer responder's 3♦ jump preference to 1N.
Slightly prefer openenr's 4♦ slam try to passing 3N.
Responder has already done more than enough.
6♦ is a bit of a punt.

---

We have certainly a diamond fit, but it was not specified, if we play strong NT / weak NT.
Playing a strong NT, the option that partner is balanced increases, you may end up in 3D
with min val., 8 card and two bal. hands, but this is a judgement call, scaoring may also
be relevant.

[Zelandakh]

Playing SA or the like, I suspect I would try a simple and boring 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3NT in practice without seeing both hands. I admire CY's courage in rebidding 3♦ given that he also opens very light but having invites that wide obviously puts a lot of pressure on Opener to do the right thing on many other deals.

[Cyberyeti]

Zelandakh, on 2017-May-02, 03:20, said:

Playing SA or the like, I suspect I would try a simple and boring 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3NT in practice without seeing both hands. I admire CY's courage in rebidding 3♦ given that he also opens very light but having invites that wide obviously puts a lot of pressure on Opener to do the right thing on many other deals.

3♦ NF is probably right, in that partner won't open light with a 4144 so he will have 5 diamonds if minimum, so we're just bidding to the level of the fit. Playing a weak NT and rebidding 1N with any balanced stronger than that helps here.

[FelicityR]

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3♥ - 5♦, and either 5♠ - 6♦ or 6♦ direct or 5NT - 6♦

[Zelandakh]

FelicityR, on 2017-May-02, 04:34, said:

1♦ - 1♥ - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3♥ - 5♦, and either 5♠ - 6♦ or 6♦ direct or 5NT - 6♦

You really want Opener to force to game and then bid slam voluntarily after Responder signs off without showing extras? Let's switch ♥Q-♣A with ♣Q-♥A or ♥A-♠xx into ♥Q-♠QJ - are you bidding any differently? It would be a lot more believable for Responder to rebid 3 or 4 diamonds; 3♣ followed by 5♦ is just not going to attract a raise here unless someone has seen the hand records or overheard another table (or has a partner that has developed an incurable cough).

[MrAce]

Zelandakh, on 2017-May-02, 03:20, said:

Playing SA or the like, I suspect I would try a simple and boring 1♦ - 1♥; 1♠ - 2♦; 2♥ - 3NT in practice without seeing both hands. I admire CY's courage in rebidding 3♦ given that he also opens very light but having invites that wide obviously puts a lot of pressure on Opener to do the right thing on many other deals.

@Stephen: Please make sure to mention the scoring. Mention how many diamonds did 1♦ opening promise etc...The details may not seem to be important for you but they are very important for some of us.

Cyber has an unbelievable success rate when both hands are seen.
3♦ bid is at best funny when we have KQx in unbid suit, a very flat hand, and when that suit is clubs which makes life miserable for pd when it is right to play 3 NT due to clubs being lower than diamonds and already being at 3 level. But when Cyber sees both hands he can always create an agreement on forums conveniently about the meaning of 3M bids over 3♦.

1♦--1♥
2♠ is better way to start. Yes I know this shows a very decent 18 or 19+ but whoever thinks S hand is worth less than 19 needs some hand evaluation practice.

If you are bidding only 1♠ with S hand due to system, (I know some including Cyber has much wider range for 1♠) then xyz could help perhaps.

1♦--1♥
1♠--2♣(inv hands or ♦ sign off)
2♥ (shows max of 1♠ and shape, or at least shows extras)

The difference between this auction and the natural 2 NT or 3♦ over 1♠ is significant. In the xyz auction opener showing extras vs a ♦ sign off makes this 2 NT or 3♦ by responder a GF auction and eliminates the possibility of pass by opener. Gives you huge comfort/luxury for next action(s) and their meanings. Lacking special gadgets like xyz, starting 2♠ over 1♥ seems best for me. Having said this, even after 2♠ rebid by opener, I am not confident that I will bid the good ones and avoid the bad slams. I am just surprised with many 1♠ starters.

[P_Marlowe]

MrAce, on 2017-May-02, 06:32, said:

<snip>
I am just surprised with many 1♠ starters.

It is a toss up for me, maybe influenced by seeing both hands, but one reason is,
that 1S gives partner lots of add. room, and absend add. agreements, I think it helps,
when we give partner room to describe his hand.
We just need hearts with a top honor (A or K) to make game sensible, how do I find this out?
A 2S bid makes it a lot harder to discover the heart fit, but makes sure we play game
instead of 1S+, take your pick, I know, partner wont pass 1S with the hand he has.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[ggwhiz]

spotlight7, on 2017-May-01, 22:17, said:

1D-1H-2S-3D*(Lebensohl style so game force)-3H(3 card support)-3NT trying to slow things down-I tend to pass here

This is my auction and the ones I've seen here that rebid 1♠ and get into 4sf seem as clear as mud in comparison.

2♠ shows the power and pointed suit length within one card (could have 5 diamonds)
3♦, gf and efficient and in old fashioned standard the 2♠ bid promised 1 more call even if this is not gf
3♥ pattern out and a very economical and accurate description of openers hand

With those clubs opposite known shortness 3nt is indicated and south can still try for slam with a 4♦ call but it's a bit too pushy and certainly not happening at matchpoints unless you are confident you can land in 4nt to play afterwards

[FelicityR]

Zelandakh, on 2017-May-02, 06:11, said:

You really want Opener to force to game and then bid slam voluntarily after Responder signs off without showing extras? Let's switch ♥Q-♣A with ♣Q-♥A or ♥A-♠xx into ♥Q-♠QJ - are you bidding any differently? It would be a lot more believable for Responder to rebid 3 or 4 diamonds; 3♣ followed by 5♦ is just not going to attract a raise here unless someone has seen the hand records or overheard another table (or has a partner that has developed an incurable cough).

I take on board what you say - yes, I'm no expert in detailed bidding - but that South hand comes out at 23 (Kaplan and Rubens), and 9 and a half playing tricks too, on my computer Bridge evaluator. After North bids the fourth suit, and then supports ♦, I can hardly see many Souths shying away from a slam.

Yes, partner may have a queen high ♥ suit, but the odds favour a higher honour: it might require a finesse or guess to make the small slam, but that is how I bid: devil may care!

[Cyberyeti]

MrAce, on 2017-May-02, 06:32, said:

@Stephen: Please make sure to mention the scoring. Mention how many diamonds did 1♦ opening promise etc...The details may not seem to be important for you but they are very important for some of us.

Cyber has an unbelievable success rate when both hands are seen.
3♦ bid is at best funny when we have KQx in unbid suit, a very flat hand, and when that suit is clubs which makes life miserable for pd when it is right to play 3 NT due to clubs being lower than diamonds and already being at 3 level. But when Cyber sees both hands he can always create an agreement on forums conveniently about the meaning of 3M bids over 3♦.

A very high percentage of the time, partner will either pass 3♦ and it will be right (at least at teams), or bid 3♥ or 3♠ or 3N and we'll get to the right spot.

3♦ is the old fashioned natural limit raise, ie an old fashioned limit 1♦-3♦ with 4♥. We wouldn't actually have this auction, but I was following the OP's request of standardish. My auction would actually start 1♦-2♦ (F1 9+ with 5♦ or 10+ with 4 not denying 4M), now we're not stopping (1♦-2♦-2♠-2N-4♣ voidwood etc).

[JonnyQuest]

spotlight7, on 2017-May-01, 22:17, said:

1D-1H-2S-3D*(Lebensohl style so game force)

3♦ is the GF? Not the 2♠ jump-shift?

[ggwhiz]

JonnyQuest, on 2017-May-02, 08:28, said:

3♦ is the GF? Not the 2♠ jump-shift?

We play the 2♠ bid as reverse strength as opposed to a jump shift to the 3 level which is a 100% game force and have lebensohl available to check out when partner has responded on a worm which they may well do on 2-4-1-6 shape after I open 1♦.

I would be willing to bet that treating a jump shift to the 2 level as game forcing is no more than slightly more popular than flannery anymore.

[m1cha]

P_Marlowe, on 2017-May-02, 07:10, said:

It is a toss up for me, maybe influenced by seeing both hands, but one reason is,
that 1S gives partner lots of add. room, and absend add. agreements, I think it helps,
when we give partner room to describe his hand.

Yes but I feel if I can bid my hand precisely I should bid it that way even if the bid takes room. In a well-designed system, the more room a bid takes, the more precise it should be, and a jump to 2♠ is quite precise. So I feel I should bid 2♠ and give control to partner who will probably know what to do with it. This hand has
5+♦, 4(+)♠;
17 HCP (only, but)
4 losers;
8 playing tricks;
5 quick tricks in 2 suits;
23.05 points K&R.
If the long suits were reversed, I'd think about opening it 2♣. I feel if I don't jump to 2♠ now, I may never again be able to describe my hand, whatever room available.

The bidding could continue
1♦ - 1♥ -
2♠ - 2NT/3♦(1) -
3♥ - 3NT + all pass.

(1) 2NT if forcing and showing a ♣ stop.

As North I would feel I have too many lost values opposite partner's known singleton or void to press on for a slam.