[hirowla]

Hi,

I was wondering how you can bid these hands to slam (if you can in fact). Bidding style is 2/1 but with a weak NT opening. Standard key card Blackwood used.

Not sure if this hand warrants a 2 level opening or not

---

For this hand, South is the dealer. 1NT opening is not an option (we open it 1S). After a 2/1 reply, 2NT rebid would be wide-ranging due to the weak NT openings).

---

Any Ideas?

Thanks,

Ian

[sfi]

A quick look at the hands suggests:

Hand 1:

P - 1S
1NT - 3H (game forcing)
4D (cue) - 4NT
5D - 6H

There are a couple of guesses here. I'm going to take the first key card as the DA, so am hoping for partner to show two key cards. I would also like to be playing 1430 key card or kickback so I can ask for the HQ. If I have the space, I will wind up in 5H rather than 6, but if I am forced to guess I'm choosing slam when partner cues.

Hand 2:

1S - 2H
2NT - 3NT

This may be a touch conservative from both hands, and I could easily be convinced the ranges are such that one hand should bid 4NT. If so, the other hand should probably pass though.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 3 suiter are usually best opened at the 1level, the problem is of course,
that you just need xxx in spades to have game, so...
the good thing is, that your longest suit is pade, switch the majors, and
it becomes a lot more unpleasant to open 2C

Assuming oppenents passing throug out
2C (1) - 2D (2)
2S (2) - 3D (3)
3H (3) - 5H (4)
6H

(1) see the long statement ...
(2) waiting, ...,
(3) natural, ... seeing both hands makes this easy
(4) quantitative

#2 1S - 2H
3NT (1) - 4NT (2)
all pass

(1) strong NT 15-17, 2NT is commonly played as split range 12-14 / 18-19
(2) quantitative

[RedSpawn]

hirowla, on 2017-May-07, 23:34, said:

Hi,

I was wondering how you can bid these hands to slam (if you can in fact). Bidding style is 2/1 but with a weak NT opening. Standard key card Blackwood used.

Not sure if this hand warrants a 2 level opening or not

---

You have presented a very good question.

Aside from the fact that you have a diamond void, I would like to hear why exactly this hand wouldn't qualify for a 2 club opening.

From a losing trick perspective, you have only two losing tricks. From an HCP perspective you have 21 HCP, but you have one spade length for a 5 card suit and two suit quality points for both your heart suit and your club suit (containing at least 3 of 5 honors in a suit 4 cards or longer). This puts your hand at a revalued 21 HCP + 1 + 1 + 1 = 24 points.

A 2 club opening would put your partner on the right course to think of slam as a viable option. I agree with p-marlowe's bidding structure.

[Cyberyeti]

RedSpawn, on 2017-May-08, 07:28, said:

You have presented a very good question.

Aside from the fact that you have a diamond void, I would like to hear why exactly this hand wouldn't qualify for a 2 club opening.

From a losing trick perspective, you have only two losing tricks. From an HCP perspective you have 21 HCP, but you have one spade length for a 5 card suit and two suit quality points for both your heart suit and your club suit (containing at least 3 of 5 honors in a suit 4 cards or longer). This puts your hand at a revalued 21 HCP + 1 + 1 + 1 = 24 points.

A 2 club opening would put your partner on the right course to think of slam as a viable option. I agree with p-marlowe's bidding structure.

Just how much are you going to enjoy bidding this hand if partner's response to 2♣ is 3♦ which can't be that unlikely ? (the fit will be in whichever of your 4 card suits you don't get to bid).

I would open 1 spade every day of the week. Slam is not that great anyway (52% I believe).

Do you have an agreement about what 1♠-2♥-3N is on the second hand, there's a lot to be said for it being a 5233 minimum strong NT and letting partner take it from there.

[RedSpawn]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-08, 07:46, said:

Just how much are you going to enjoy bidding this hand if partner's response to 2♣ is 3♦ which can't be that unlikely ? (the fit will be in whichever of your 4 card suits you don't get to bid).

I would open 1 spade every day of the week. Slam is not that great anyway (52% I believe).

Do you have an agreement about what 1♠-2♥-3N is on the second hand, there's a lot to be said for it being a 5233 minimum strong NT and letting partner take it from there.

Well. 2♣ (barn burner) -3♦(to show strong ♦ suit)-3♠ to show 5 card ♠ suit for 1st time - rebid 4♦ to show disgust with ♠ and with 3NT contract - bid 4 card ♥ suit as last and final call for majors - partner will jump for joy as he has XXXXX♥. The slam bidding will take place from here.

When you are sitting on just two LTC's in your hand there are certain liberties you can take with the bidding beyond 3NT that just isn't possible with a hand of say LTC=4 or 5.

[rmnka447]

+1 for P_Marlowe.

[rmnka447]

RedSpawn, on 2017-May-08, 09:06, said:

Well. 2♣ (barn burner) -3♦(to show strong ♦ suit)-3♠ to show 5 card ♠ suit for 1st time - rebid 4♦ to show disgust with ♠ and with 3NT contract - bid 4 card ♥ suit as last and final call for majors - partner will jump for joy as he has XXXXX♥. The slam bidding will take place from here.

When you are sitting on just two LTC's in your hand there are certain liberties you can take with the bidding beyond 3NT that just isn't possible with a hand of say LTC=4 or 5.

With my partners, we take a very disciplined approach to responding to a 2 ♣ opener. 2 ♦ waiting. We play very strict rules about positive responses. For a positive 2 ♥ or 2 ♠ will at least 1 1/2 QTs and 5+ suit headed by 2 honors. 3 ♣ or 3 ♦ requires at least 2 QTs with a 5+ suit headed 2 of top 3 honors. So we'd make the 2 ♦ waiting bid and follow P_Marlowe's sequence.

Part of the reasoning for the additional requirements for the minor positive is because it raises the level of the bidding quickly. But even with a potential minor positive response hand you might want to consider just making a waiting 2 ♦ response, so that opener can make some preliminary description of his/her hand. It's something to consider especially when you hold both red suits and partner is likely to be bidding on a black suited hand. Consider also if partner has one of those huge NT type hands, where you might have a laydown slam in either red suit. Keeping the bidding low may allow you to show both suits and find the slam where it might be difficult with the positive minor response.

OP hands illustrate this principle nicely.

[proas]

#1
Opening with hand W can only be 2♣. Because after opening 1♠ can missing a game in 4♠/♥ or a slam, if the responder bids Pass. Even with the shape at E: ♠4 ♥87652 ♦65432 ♣J4 slam in ♥ is real!

[Cyberyeti]

RedSpawn, on 2017-May-08, 09:06, said:

Well. 2♣ (barn burner) -3♦(to show strong ♦ suit)-3♠ to show 5 card ♠ suit for 1st time - rebid 4♦ to show disgust with ♠ and with 3NT contract - bid 4 card ♥ suit as last and final call for majors - partner will jump for joy as he has XXXXX♥. The slam bidding will take place from here.

When you are sitting on just two LTC's in your hand there are certain liberties you can take with the bidding beyond 3NT that just isn't possible with a hand of say LTC=4 or 5.

Now reverse partner's hearts and clubs, that was the point I was making, is 4♣ natural over 3♠ ? do you wish to bid a suit that bad ?

Is 4♥ even natural over 4♦ which some would play as pretty much suit setting ?

This is not a slam you really want to be in, we would find out you were missing an ace and the queen of hearts and stay out after a 1♠ opener.

[masse24]

hirowla, on 2017-May-07, 23:34, said:

---

Hand 1
Not sure I want to be in slam here. Looks like a tad under 50% to land both ♥ honors.
However, if I must find the slam, I probably get there this way . . .

P -- 1♠
1NT - 3♥¹
4♦² - 4♠³
4NT⁴- 6♦⁵
6♥⁶ - P


1) Game-Force
2) Control, agrees ♥
3) Control (can be A or K under keycard ask)
4) RKCB
5) Odd # keys ♦ void
6) Cross fingers. Rub lucky rabbits foot. Pray for luck.

I open this 1♠ . . . all day.

[Joe_Old]

masse24, on 2017-May-09, 06:19, said:

Hand 1
Not sure I want to be in slam here. Looks like a tad under 50% to land both ♥ honors.
However, if I must find the slam, I probably get there this way . . .

P -- 1♠
1NT - 3♥¹
4♦² - 4♠³
4NT⁴- 6♦⁵
6♥⁶ - P


1) Game-Force
2) Control, agrees ♥
3) Control (can be A or K under keycard ask)
4) RKCB
5) Odd # keys ♦ void
6) Cross fingers. Rub lucky rabbits foot. Pray for luck.

I open this 1♠ . . . all day.

Actually, picking up the ♥ suit is over 50%. If you just play a straight "8 ever, 9 never" your odds are just under 52% (as Cyberyeti noted). But you can improve those odds with the principle of restricted choice. The downside to the slam is the small possibility of a black suit ruff.

No argument about your bidding.

[Joe_Old]

duplicate

[Stephen Tu]

Joe_Old, on 2017-May-09, 09:25, said:

Actually, picking up the ♥ suit is over 50%. If you just play a straight "8 ever, 9 never" your odds are just under 52% (as Cyberyeti noted). But you can improve those odds with the principle of restricted choice. The downside to the slam is the small possibility of a black suit ruff.

This is just plain wrong. If you get a spade lead, you are down to picking up trumps barring some <1% ruffs, and that is only 46.36%. (Basically ~40% for 2-2, but subtract for QJ tight offside since you are going to finesse when an honor drops, which is mostly compensated by one of the quacks offside, then +6 for the other quack offside). Getting to 53% for picking up trumps requires hand like AKxx opposite Jxxxx where you get to play for 2-2 or drop a stiff Q. Not missing both QJ. If spade lead is somehow marked in the auction, you would not want to be in it.

However, I'd mostly want to be in the slam because you might not get a spade lead. In that case I imagine you bang down two top trumps, and make if either trumps split 2-2, or 3-1 split+no early club ruff+diamond ruffing finesse(or diamond lead to begin with). That ought to be good enough overall I think.

[RedSpawn]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-08, 07:46, said:

Just how much are you going to enjoy bidding this hand if partner's response to 2♣ is 3♦ which can't be that unlikely ? (the fit will be in whichever of your 4 card suits you don't get to bid).

I would open 1 spade every day of the week. Slam is not that great anyway (52% I believe).

RedSpawn, on 2017-May-08, 09:06, said:

Well. 2♣ (barn burner) -3♦(to show strong ♦ suit)-3♠ to show 5 card ♠ suit for 1st time - rebid 4♦ to show disgust with ♠ and with 3NT contract - bid 4 card ♥ suit as last and final call for majors - partner will jump for joy as he has XXXXX♥. The slam bidding will take place from here.

When you are sitting on just two LTC's in your hand there are certain liberties you can take with the bidding beyond 3NT that just isn't possible with a hand of say LTC=4 or 5.

rmnka447, on 2017-May-08, 18:21, said:

With my partners, we take a very disciplined approach to responding to a 2 ♣ opener. 2 ♦ waiting. We play very strict rules about positive responses. For a positive 2 ♥ or 2 ♠ will at least 1 1/2 QTs and 5+ suit headed by 2 honors. 3 ♣ or 3 ♦ requires at least 2 QTs with a 5+ suit headed 2 of top 3 honors. So we'd make the 2 ♦ waiting bid and follow P_Marlowe's sequence.

Part of the reasoning for the additional requirements for the minor positive is because it raises the level of the bidding quickly. But even with a potential minor positive response hand you might want to consider just making a waiting 2 ♦ response, so that opener can make some preliminary description of his/her hand. It's something to consider especially when you hold both red suits and partner is likely to be bidding on a black suited hand. Consider also if partner has one of those huge NT type hands, where you might have a laydown slam in either red suit. Keeping the bidding low may allow you to show both suits and find the slam where it might be difficult with the positive minor response.

OP hands illustrate this principle nicely.

Please bear in mind that I was answering the question of what would happen IF partner responded 3♦ with the previous hand in question. This doesn't mean that I advocated the 3♦ response. I was answering Cyberyeti's question.

I said in my original post that I agree with P Marlowe's bidding structure which began with 2♣ open and the partner responded with 2♦ waiting.

I will submit again that I think most players are putting 2♣ opens on too high of a pedestal. That may work in tournament play because that's what the field is doing. In tournament play, getting to a solid game contract, by any means necessary, is the primary goal. As a result, I believe slam bidding accuracy has taken a back seat (in my humble opinion) and since slams could result in -50 or -100, a cold, slightly underbid game has become the flavor of choice.

Take for instance, the following hand that just happened in a United World BBO tournament #2403 (Board#9) on 5/9/2017:

AQ9832♠,AQJ9765♥. That's all! Six spades and Seven hearts. Obviously this doesn't count as 22 HCP since all you have is 13 HCP and 3 Quick Tricks, but come on. You are on the hunt for two K's and you have basically a 7 level contract. You are two tricks away from a possible grand slam and if you don't open 2♣, you are making your partner guess about what your ambitions are.

Opening this hand as 1♥ and reversing 2♠, though conservative, doesn't fully describe the barn burner you have. If you open 2♣ as a lot of players did, you definitely arrive at 6♥, 6♠, 7♥, & 7♠ contracts. However, a lot of responders who saw the reverse were quite content to rest at 4♥ or 5♥ because they figured the reverse is about 17-18 HCP.

You only get one chance to announce a 2♣ barn burner. AQ9832♠,AQJ9765♥ = BARN BURNER!!

[miamijd]

On the first hand, I think it's close whether or not to be in slam. Yes, it's slightly above 50%, but at IMPs that's not good enough and at MPs I want to be where the field is unless I have a decided advantage in the contract (I figure I'm going to play the hand better than most of the field, so I only want to give up that advantage if my contract is significantly better).

If you want to get to slam, I think masse24's bidding is appropriate.

On the second hand, you need to have a way to distinguish balanced / semi-balanced hands of different strengths after a 2/1 rebid. You play weak NT; I don't know if your range is 10-12, 11-13, or 12-14. I'm going to assume it's 11+-14 for this discussion, but the principles are the same.

After 1M - 2X, a 3NT call generally has a very specific meaning: 15-17 balanced or semi-balanced. For a weak NT pair, that would be any 5332 or 5422 (not 54 majors) 15-17 hand. For a strong NT pair, it's the same, except that it will exclude any hand that would have opened 1NT.

A 2NT rebid shows the 12-14 balanced or semi-balanced hand (could also be 5431 with a stiff in responder's D or H suit) OR an 18+ balanced hand that plans to rebid 4NT (18-19) or drive to slam (20+) over a 3NT bid. For a strong NT pair, that will include pretty much any of the 12-14 hands that fit the qualifications. For a weak NT pair, it will exclude those hands where opener would have opened 1NT.

So here, opener should rebid 3NT, not 2NT. Responder probably ought to content himself with 4NT, because there is no fit in either major. Opener has an easy pass.

I don't want to be in slam on #2; do you? Looks like it depends on a 3-3 H split OR the 10s dropping third (maybe a couple of other very minor chances). Not great.

Cheers,
Mike

[aawk]

If you open 1♠ or 2♣ west or east will bid 3♥ and the other hand has to decide what action to take. Both hands are strong enough to bid slam forcing (west is holding 2 LTC and east 6 LTC). How depends on the agreements you have made with your partner.

East could give a cue with 3♠ (if agreed on), a cue with 4♦ or asking with 4nt being RBW or RKC.

West could give a cue with 3♠ (if agreed on), a cue with 4♣, asking with 4nt being RBW or RKC or 5♦ being exclusion black wood.

How to get to 3♥ depends on your bidding agreements.


1♠-1nt
3♣-3♦
3♥-??


1♠-1nt
3♣-3♥
??


1♠-1nt
3♥-??


2♣-2♥
3♥-??


2♣-2♦
2♠-3♦
3♥-??


2♣-2♦
2♠-3♥
??


For the second hand you got 32 HCP together and no fit and slam is only made if the h are 3-3, ten of ♠ drops or Q of ♣ drops.

1♠-2♥
2nt (extra value)-??

East at some time will give a invite and west accepts or not (I would not).

[Cyberyeti]

RedSpawn, on 2017-May-09, 11:44, said:

Please bear in mind that I was answering the question of what would happen IF partner responded 3♦ with the previous hand in question. This doesn't mean that I advocated the 3♦ response. I was answering Cyberyeti's question.

Actually that comment was without reference to the responding hand in question, but give partner the same honours 1561, you would have the same issues, possibly even more so in that a lot of peple would play 2♣-3♦-3♠-4♦-4♥ as a cue agreeing diamonds if you played 3♦ fairly disciplined.

Give partner either x, xxx, AKJxxxx (or even AKQ 7th), xx or xx, xxx, AKQJ10x, xx now try bidding this, can you tell them apart ? 6♦ is bad on the first and excellent on the second.

It's a question of approach, playing 2♣-2♦-2♠ as FG is a common approach and helps in many situations, and if you do that, this hand isn't good enough AND you will find it difficult to find the right spot particularly if your fit is in clubs.

[RedSpawn]

Cyberyeti, on 2017-May-09, 15:19, said:

Actually that comment was without reference to the responding hand in question, but give partner the same honours 1561, you would have the same issues, possibly even more so in that a lot of peple would play 2♣-3♦-3♠-4♦-4♥ as a cue agreeing diamonds if you played 3♦ fairly disciplined.

Give partner either x, xxx, AKJxxxx (or even AKQ 7th), xx or xx, xxx, AKQJ10x, xx now try bidding this, can you tell them apart ? 6♦ is bad on the first and excellent on the second.

It's a question of approach, playing 2♣-2♦-2♠ as FG is a common approach and helps in many situations, and if you do that, this hand isn't good enough AND you will find it difficult to find the right spot particularly if your fit is in clubs.

2♣ is an opening bid designed to handle hands generally that have at least 5 or so quick tricks (or least more quick tricks than losers) and/or at least 22 points total. We have discussed how the hand in question fulfills both features. I don't think it is fair or reasonable to expect this convention, or any convention for that matter, to serve as an insurance policy for EVERY combination of hands available in bridge.

My role and obligation to my partner is to communicate my barn burners when I am lucky enough to get them. If you feel 1♠ is fine for you, enjoy. I am going to bid 2♣ when I have 24 total points and LTC = 2, and trust that my partner and I can land the plane properly.

[Stephen Tu]

miamijd, on 2017-May-09, 12:34, said:

On the first hand, I think it's close whether or not to be in slam. Yes, it's slightly above 50%, but at IMPs that's not good enough

??? Why is better than 50% not good enough at IMPS? Isn't 50% the breakeven point at IMPS? I think the contract is around 46% on a spade lead, and way higher on other leads, may be close to 60% overall.
MP is a difficult calculation depends on strength of field.

Quote

I don't want to be in slam on #2; do you? Looks like it depends on a 3-3 H split OR the 10s dropping third (maybe a couple of other very minor chances). Not great.

T of spades dropping in 3 rounds is about the same as hearts breaking, in the 35-36% range. Needing only one of those two is like 58% or so, plus some small squeeze chances I guess if the CQ drops?
I definitely want to be in it looking at all the cards. But I am not going to bid it without seeing both hands, it really hinges on that 98 of spades to be a good slams, and I think with the major suit misfits you should stay low, and avoid the horrible slam the many times South is missing either one of those crucial spots.