[sakuragi]

Real life bridge
Green all. MP.
Your opps are intermediate (actually you dont know them). Your partner is intermediate+ (he would disagree). You are the best (lol). Tournament result FYR: your pair ranked 5, your opp pair ranked 7.
You are holding
♠- ♥K ♦AKxxxx ♣AJxxxx
Your RHS deals and opens 1♠. bidding goes

Question 1
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - your bid?

Bidding goes on. Question 2
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P) - P
(5H) - your bid?

And it goes on. Question 3
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P) - P
(5H) - 6c - (X) =
what is the final result?
============================================

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In retrospect. Question 4
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P normal speed) - P
(5H after struggling) - Do you change your mind?

[Winstonm]

What is the point in redoubling? Pass and play 5C doubled.

[gszes]

questions 2/3/4 never happened at my theoretical table since I played 5c x making who knows what. The real problem with xx is not so much that 5c should have decent play but that we almost certainly do not have enough defense vs the opps in a heart contract. In order for the xx to gain the contract must make AND the opps fail to run OR if they run we have to be able to set 5h at least 4 tricks. YEAH, read that again, FOUR tricks to make up for the score of 5c x making. Once you arrive at that conclusion I am pretty sure you will forever be happy to play in 5c x under these conditions.

[nige1]

 sakuragi, on 2017-June-09, 08:52, said:

Real life bridge. Green all. MP. Your opps are intermediate (actually you dont know them). Your partner is intermediate+ (he would disagree). You are the best (lol). Tournament result FYR: your pair ranked 5, your opp pair ranked 7.
You are holding ♠- ♥K ♦AKxxxx ♣AJxxxx
Your RHS deals and opens 1♠. bidding goes

Question 1
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - your bid?

Bidding goes on. Question 2
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P) - P
(5H) - your bid?

And it goes on. Question 3
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P) - P
(5H) - 6c - (X) =
what is the final result?

In retrospect. Question 4
(1S) - 2NT - (3NT) - 5C
(X) - XX - (P normal speed) - P
(5H after struggling) - Do you change your mind?

IMPs, Green, with ♠- ♥ K ♦ A K x x x x ♣ A J x x x x
After (1♠) 2NT (3NT) 5♣; (X) ??, I rank

• XX = NAT. It's your hand. They are unlikely to make any contract at this level. You expect to make at least 11 tricks. Stripe-tailed ape territory. If there is more auction, then you help parter to exercise judgement.
• Pass = NAT. Take your profit. But non-consultative.

After (1♠) 2NT (3NT) 5♣; (X) XX (P) P; (5♥), I rank

• 6♣ = NAT. You might have bid this earlier but now partner is better placed if opponents compete further.
• Pass = NAT. Forcing, IMO.
• 5♠ = CUE. If partner has ♥A then a grand might be possible.
• Double = PEN. Still hope for a plus score, LHO's pass of 5♣XX is ominous because, for many partnerships, it is a penalty pass. If opponents are a regular partnership, then you might ask the meaning of LHO's 3N and his pass over your XX.

After (1♠) 2NT (3NT) 5♣; (X) XX (P) P; (5♥) 6♣ (X) P; (P), I rank

• XX = NAT. 6♣XX is a gamble but with the odds.
• Pass = NAT. Don't frighten the horses.

After your redouble, RHO is likely to have a hard problem, so a slow decision means little.

[ggwhiz]

I just bid 6♣ right away and try to look like I just fell off the turnip truck (my natural look).

If you redouble first you just waved a red flag that you mean it when you bid 6♣ next and I don't think 5♣ doubled is likely to be the final contract unless THEY fell off that truck.

Might go down 1 but I didn't get dealt this to wimp out and if it's any worse we'll have a forensic audit on the 5♣ bid.

[Nabooba]

A xx of 5C is very silly. Just pass the x. You deserve to lose the AH and a trump.

[msjennifer]

If I never thought of bidding 6C earlier then I shall simply Pass 5Cx So questions 2,3,4 are irrelevant for me.

[m1cha]

LHO should have opening strength, stoppers in your suits, a more or less balanced distribution and a maximum of 2 cards in ♠, something like
♠ Xx
♥ Xxxx
♦ QJTx
♣ KQx.

RHO has both majors, a shortage in clubs and no clear suit rebid over 5♣, something like
♠ XXxxxx
♥ XXxx
♦ xxx
♣ -.

Your partner has a distributional hands with next to no honors (since you have 15 HCP and both of your opponents have opening strength), he should have 4 cards in ♣, and will otherwise have the hand full of majors because if not, the opponents should have found their major fit more easily, thus expect something like
♠ xxxxx
♥ xxxx
♦ -
♣ xxxx.

The double of 5♣ is for take-out, otherwise both partner and LHO don't have their bids. RHO will never let you play ♣ as long as there's a chance for a fit on their side. But LHO will let you play ♣ either because he thinks it's down or because there's nothing else he can say. So I think your best chance is to shut up RHO by passing 5♣X - and hope I was wrong about the ♣Q.

[Joe_Old]

Redouble of 5♣ is mandatory: you don't have extras, you have lots of extras. As noted above, partner can't have many HCPs, but does have distribution; now that he knows that you're serious about making 5♣, it should be up to him to decide whether to move over 5♥. Opener probably has a hand like yours, except with length/strength in the majors, so your partner should judge whether his major suit holdings can cause opener trouble (picture 5432 Q1092 2 5432). If not, he should bid 6♣.

Bidding 6♣ over 5 hearts is a sin. You've already described your hand. Don't bid the same values twice.

[burgerme]

 Joe_Old, on 2017-June-10, 09:33, said:

Redouble of 5♣ is mandatory: you don't have extras, you have lots of extras. As noted above, partner can't have many HCPs, but does have distribution; now that he knows that you're serious about making 5♣, it should be up to him to decide whether to move over 5♥. Opener probably has a hand like yours, except with length/strength in the majors, so your partner should judge whether his major suit holdings can cause opener trouble (picture 5432 Q1092 2 5432). If not, he should bid 6♣.

Bidding 6♣ over 5 hearts is a sin. You've already described your hand. Don't bid the same values twice.

????? If XX is 'Mandatory'???? Then why oh why is bidding 6!c over 5 !h as sin.

XX is the sin

PASS and take your profit

[msjennifer]

 m1cha, on 2017-June-10, 07:37, said:

LHO should have opening strength, stoppers in your suits, a more or less balanced distribution and a maximum of 2 cards in ♠, something like
♠ Xx
♥ Xxxx
♦ QJTx
♣ KQx.

RHO has both majors, a shortage in clubs and no clear suit rebid over 5♣, something like
♠ XXxxxx
♥ XXxx
♦ xxx
♣ -.

Your partner has a distributional hands with next to no honors (since you have 15 HCP and both of your opponents have opening strength), he should have 4 cards in ♣, and will otherwise have the hand full of majors because if not, the opponents should have found their major fit more easily, thus expect something like
♠ xxxxx
♥ xxxx
♦ -
♣ xxxx.

The double of 5♣ is for take-out, otherwise both partner and LHO don't have their bids. RHO will never let you play ♣ as long as there's a chance for a fit on their side. But LHO will let you play ♣ either because he thinks it's down or because there's nothing else he can say. So I think your best chance is to shut up RHO by passing 5♣X - and hope I was wrong about the ♣Q.

Very fair enough argument..Redouble is absurd if not silly.

[Rosengatan]

Agree w plenty, pass and smile

[Joe_Old]

 burgerme, on 2017-June-10, 10:35, said:

????? If XX is 'Mandatory'???? Then why oh why is bidding 6!c over 5 !h as sin.

XX is the sin

PASS and take your profit

Short sighted. You are never playing 5♣X, because as M1cha correctly pointed out, the double is take out.

Responder, who originally bid 3NT, can't have enough to guarantee more than a one trick set opposite a major suit game or slam, and so would cuebid minor suit aces (obviously not possible here) with the appropriate hand, or pick a major. Meanwhile, you've given up a chance to clue in partner and make him part of the auction.

After your XX, responder's pass indicates that he expects to set 5♣, and is expressing doubt about making 11 tricks in a major. Therefore, partner's bid has pushed the opponents a level higher than may be safe, and isn't that the goal? And, partner knows that you have a lot of minor suit tricks, that responder has ♣ behind you, and that opener has a lot of major suit cards. Let him make the final decision.

[xbabarx]

5♣X i'd never xx

[ArtK78]

Redouble is a crime against nature.

[Winstonm]

 m1cha, on 2017-June-10, 07:37, said:

LHO should have opening strength, stoppers in your suits, a more or less balanced distribution and a maximum of 2 cards in ♠, something like
♠ Xx
♥ Xxxx
♦ QJTx
♣ KQx.

RHO has both majors, a shortage in clubs and no clear suit rebid over 5♣, something like
♠ XXxxxx
♥ XXxx
♦ xxx
♣ -.

Your partner has a distributional hands with next to no honors (since you have 15 HCP and both of your opponents have opening strength), he should have 4 cards in ♣, and will otherwise have the hand full of majors because if not, the opponents should have found their major fit more easily, thus expect something like
♠ xxxxx
♥ xxxx
♦ -
♣ xxxx.

The double of 5♣ is for take-out, otherwise both partner and LHO don't have their bids. RHO will never let you play ♣ as long as there's a chance for a fit on their side. But LHO will let you play ♣ either because he thinks it's down or because there's nothing else he can say. So I think your best chance is to shut up RHO by passing 5♣X - and hope I was wrong about the ♣Q.

Unless the opps are playing something out of the ordinary where 3NT is non-natural, I can't imagine a hand where double would be takeout. I would take a double as a warning to not bid again, something like a weakish balanced opening hand.

[Joe_Old]

 Winstonm, on 2017-June-11, 10:54, said:

Unless the opps are playing something out of the ordinary where 3NT is non-natural, I can't imagine a hand where double would be takeout. I would take a double as a warning to not bid again, something like a weakish balanced opening hand.

The double is control showing and takeout. You have 6♣, partner has 4-5♣, responder has 2-3♣. That doesn't leave any, and opener's double therefore tells responder that he has first round control (almost certainly a void).

Opener has zero interest in defending a ♣ contract. He has 10-13 major suit cards (not necessarily balanced) and visions of slam. Opener is asking responder to help set the strain and level of their major suit contract.

[GrahamJson]

Maybe the double was intended to be take out, but I'm not sure how LHO is supposed to deduce this. He doesn't know you have six or if your partner has four. If he held KX, for example, why would he not think his partner was doubling on Q10x, for example? Would he trust his partner's bidding or his opponents? Overall I think that the double was penalty, although probably a bad one.

Putting it another way, I think it is more likely that someone doesn't have their bid rather than someone has invented a five level take out double with the expectation that their partner will be able to read it as such.

[Joe_Old]

 GrahamJson, on 2017-June-11, 16:01, said:

Maybe the double was intended to be take out, but I'm not sure how LHO is supposed to deduce this. He doesn't know you have six or if your partner has four. If he held KX, for example, why would he not think his partner was doubling on Q10x, for example? Would he trust his partner's bidding or his opponents? Overall I think that the double was penalty, although probably a bad one.

Putting it another way, I think it is more likely that someone doesn't have their bid rather than someone has invented a five level take out double with the expectation that their partner will be able to read it as such.

Ever hear about Occam's Razor? It states that the simplest answer is probably correct.

Overcaller/advancer have voluntarily bid to the 5 level. It is far more likely that they have a 10+ card fit than 8, and therefore bridge logic requires responder to "know" that opener is short. In fact, the accepted meaning of a double by a bidder "known" to be short in a suit is that the double is control showing, most often a singleton or void rather than A or K. Remember that advancer can't have much in HCP, most likely 0-2, yet he jumped to the 5 level at equal vulnerability. We are told that advancer is not a hopeless lunatic, so we assume that he has his bid. That means that he must be distributional, increasing the odds that opener is void. All bridge logic.

The double is therefore not exactly conventional, but an extension of bridge logic and convention. Note also that most of the commenters are salivating at the prospect of playing 5♣X, expecting to make. They all assume that advancer has 4-5♣.

I'm waiting for the Poster to reveal the other hands to see if the 6♣ sacrifice is worthwhile.

[Nabooba]

"I'm waiting for the Poster to reveal the other hands to see if the 6♣ sacrifice is worthwhile."
This is a very amusing post. The poster has a great sense of humour.