[kenberg]

 PassedOut, on 2018-June-20, 06:27, said:

"Where's my Peter?" Trump said


Mr. Manners

Quote

He said the North Koreans had assured him they would not use nuclear weapons. “They are going to denuclearize,” he said with supreme confidence, unlike the assessment of many of his aides and experts. Trump said that Democrats and Republicans wanted him to trash Kim Jong Un but that he did not plan to do it because it was not his form of “manners,” one attendee said.

Probably King George thought the colonies would never rebel. But of course George was crazy.

[barmar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-19, 21:04, said:

And if you release them to the public, isn't that an incentive for bringing children with you when you enter the US illegally?

They already have a big incentive for bringing children with them -- not abandoning your children.

The idea that illegal immigrants would kidnap children just so they look like families and they'll get special dispensation is just a strawman. Even if it occasionally happens, does it really justify the harm being done to thousands of innocent children being separated from their legitimate parents? Things have to be put in priority.

[barmar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-19, 21:04, said:

I very much want to keep the families together. The next question is: How? Do you put the children in the adult prisons with the parents? Do you build special facilities for imprisoning families? Do you just release the families to the public with the hopes that they will return for their court appearance (apparently most don't).

One of the proposals being discussed is to put ankle monitors on them and release them, like prisoners under house arrest. If they don't return voluntarily, we can find them.

[ldrews]

 barmar, on 2018-June-20, 09:13, said:

One of the proposals being discussed is to put ankle monitors on them and release them, like prisoners under house arrest. If they don't return voluntarily, we can find them.

That is assuming that they don't remove them.

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-19, 21:04, said:

Do you just release the families to the public with the hopes that they will return for their court appearance (apparently most don't).

This is false. Studies show that this figure is close to 90%

Quote

Anyone have any practical solutions to this situation that addresses both the short term and long term?

Go back to directing your resources at violent criminals.
Provide more resources to process refugees.

The single most effective things that we could do would be

1. Decriminalizing most forms of drugs
2. Crack down on gun sales

The two later choices would have a dramatic impact on the stability of governments South of the border.

[Winstonm]

This is what happens when a lying SOS is elected president - lies and a really bad smell everywhere.

Quote

The Trump administration insisted it didn't have a policy of separating children from their parents at the U.S.-Mexico border. It said that it was merely following the law. And it said “Congress alone can fix” the mess.

It just admitted that all that was nonsense — and that it badly overplayed its hand.

Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, who on Sunday and Monday insisted that this wasn't an actual policy and that the administration's hands are tied, will now have to untie them as the White House will reverse the supposedly nonexistent policy. Amid an outcry from Senate Republicans and an emerging promise to fix the problem themselves — just as the White House had demanded — the Trump administration has drafted an executive action to change the policy and keep families united.

“I’ll be signing something in a little while that’s going to do that.”

“I’ll be doing something that’s somewhat preemptive and ultimately will be matched by legislation I’m sure.”


It's at once an admission that the politics of the issue had gotten out of hand and that the administration's arguments were completely dishonest. Virtually everything it said about the policy is tossed aside with this executive action. It's the political equivalent of waving the white flag and the legal equivalent of confessing to making false statements. Rather than letting Congress rebuke it, the White House is rebuking itself and trying to save some face.

[kenberg]

It's all because of the letter I sent. Trump called and asked if I really thought that he should stop separating families. I told him that this was what we all thought and he said he would take care of it.I'm still working on convincing him not to underlead an Ace against a grand slam.He wants to talk that one over with Mattis.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2018-June-20, 13:32, said:

It's all because of the letter I sent. Trump called and asked if I really thought that he should stop separating families. I told him that this was what we all thought and he said he would take care of it.I'm still working on convincing him not to underlead an Ace against a grand slam.He wants to talk that one over with Mattis.

https://www.youtube....h?v=xIkUiD8N81k

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-19, 21:04, said:

I very much want to keep the families together. The next question is: How? Do you put the children in the adult prisons with the parents? Do you build special facilities for imprisoning families? Do you just release the families to the public with the hopes that they will return for their court appearance (apparently most don't). And if you release them to the public, isn't that an incentive for bringing children with you when you enter the US illegally? Isn't that an incentive for an increase in child trafficing? (Apparently a large number of the children are not related to the adults that they enter with).

The way in which you are framing this question implies that some kind of trade off is permissable.

IT IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE TO TORTURE SMALL CHILDREN TO GET YOUR WAY.

[ldrews]

 hrothgar, on 2018-June-20, 11:27, said:

This is false. Studies show that this figure is close to 90%



Go back to directing your resources at violent criminals.
Provide more resources to process refugees.

The single most effective things that we could do would be

1. Decriminalizing most forms of drugs
2. Crack down on gun sales

The two later choices would have a dramatic impact on the stability of governments South of the border.

According to Senator Jeff Flake, 90% of illegal immigrants fail to appear in court. http://www.politifac...rants-given-co/

So apparently you choose to allow illegal immigrants to just disappear into US society. Don't you think this will only increase under that policy? The US already has problems funding the social services used by illegal immigrants. And they tend to compete for the lowest rung of jobs, depriving US citizens of entry level positions.

How do you handle these consequences?

[ldrews]

 hrothgar, on 2018-June-20, 14:51, said:

The way in which you are framing this question implies that some kind of trade off is permissable.

IT IS NEVER ACCEPTABLE TO TORTURE SMALL CHILDREN TO GET YOUR WAY.

Do you have evidence that small children are being tortured? Torture has very specific physical and/or mental conditions.

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-20, 15:33, said:

According to Senator Jeff Flake, 90% of illegal immigrants fail to appear in court. http://www.politifac...rants-given-co/

Jesus f#cking christ you're stupid.

The very web page that you are citing states that Flake is misrepresenting the #s

If you actually bother to read the article rather then cherry picking the number you like, you'll see that Politifacts states the following

Quote

The report used figures from the Executive Office for Immigration Review, which is tasked by the Justice Department with handling immigration court proceedings, appellate reviews and administrative hearings. Between 2003 and 2012, the percentage of all immigrants who failed to appear in court after being released has bounced between 20 percent and 40 percent, settling in at about 30 percent at the end of that time span. (No data for children specifically is available from this long-running data set.)

That’s substantially lower than the 90 percent figure Flake cited.

Or, if you prefer

https://www.humanrig...migration-court

Quote

In recent months, the Executive Office for Immigration Review (EOIR), the agency within the U.S. Department of Justice that adjudicates immigration removal cases, released data showing that the vast majority of families do in fact show up for court dates. This data, however, has been misconstrued—some have even claimed that 85 percent of mothers are not appearing for their hearings.

In fact, the data actually shows that the majority of families do appear. Appearance rates can be brought even higher by addressing deficiencies in the provision of information and through provision of counsel. Ninety-eight percent of families who are represented by counsel show up for their hearings. In individual cases determined to need additional support, alternative measures, which are much more cost effective and humane than detention, achieve very high compliance rates.

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-20, 15:37, said:

Do you have evidence that small children are being tortured? Torture has very specific physical and/or mental conditions.

The United Nations Torture Convention of 1984 (Which the United States signed on April 18th, 1988 defines torture as follows:

"Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity."

So, yes, there is plenty of evidence that the Trump Administration is systemically practicing torture.

(And don't try any bullshit like "The US isn't intentionally causing the suffering". Sessions and Miller are both on the record saying that this is a deliberate choice and Kelly is on tape months back explaining how this type of policy would be rolled out)

This is - part of - the reason that the UN is now calling out the US for Human Right's abuses.

Get it through your thick skull.

THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT IS DELIBERATELY TORTURING SMALL CHILDREN AS A MATTER OF POLICY

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-20, 15:33, said:

So apparently you choose to allow illegal immigrants to just disappear into US society. Don't you think this will only increase under that policy? The US already has problems funding the social services used by illegal immigrants. And they tend to compete for the lowest rung of jobs, depriving US citizens of entry level positions.

What is the acceptable thresh hold?

How many children can we justifiably torture to prevent one illegal immigrant from disappearing into US society?

Hint: The answer is NONE. Torturing small children is never acceptable.

[cherdano]

But, Richard, the children will be taken care of - put in foster homes or whatever! John Kelly already said so more than a month ago!

[ldrews]

 hrothgar, on 2018-June-20, 16:19, said:

What is the acceptable thresh hold?

How many children can we justifiably torture to prevent one illegal immigrant from disappearing into US society?

Hint: The answer is NONE. Torturing small children is never acceptable.

So I get it, you are in favor of open borders if that will prevent the separation of children from parents who have illegally entered the US, regardless of long term consequences.

[hrothgar]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-20, 18:11, said:

So I get it, you are in favor of open borders if that will prevent the separation of children from parents who have illegally entered the US, regardless of long term consequences.

And here we see a perfect example of Drews' style of debate

Drews made a pair of incredible stupid posts

• In the first, he cited an article that showed that Senator Flake was misrepresenting facts to back his position
  
• In the second, he demonstrated that he completely misunderstands the definition of torture

And, rather than dealing with the actual critiques of his position, he prefers to invent yet another new strawman to argue against...

SAD!

[andrei]

 hrothgar, on 2018-June-20, 11:27, said:

This is false. Studies show that this figure is close to 90%

 hrothgar, on 2018-June-20, 15:41, said:

If you actually bother to read the article rather then cherry picking the number you like, you'll see that Politifacts states the following:

Historically, the rate has ranged between 20 percent to 40 percent, settling in at about 30 percent in 2012, the most recent full year for which data is available. A more recent estimate for children specifically, made by the director of the office responsible for handling such cases, is that the current no-show rate for children is 46 percent. That’s still quite high, but it’s only half what Flake said. We rate the claim False.

Where is your 90% coming from?
You weren't just making up numbers, were you?

[ldrews]

 andrei, on 2018-June-20, 20:53, said:

Where is your 90% coming from?
You weren't just making up numbers, were you?

Read the link

[andrei]

 ldrews, on 2018-June-20, 20:58, said:

Read the link

Apparently hrothgar heard of studies saying that 90% goes to court.

The linked linked states the most recent estimate is that 46% skip court.

So I was asking if hrothgar was making up his "90% goes to court" number.