[hrothgar]

 Cyberyeti, on 2017-September-16, 08:40, said:

But you don't think if that happened, the North would be a radioactive desert ?

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I don't think that the North Korean regime will intentionally launch a unilateral attack on South Korea, Japan, or the US.

I am very much worried about a scenario like the following

1. NK launches a ballistic missile towards Guam
2. Something goes wrong. A missile that was meant to land 25 miles away from the island actually hits the island
3. The US over reacts
4. Bye bye Seoul

Or, alternatively

1. Mueller provides information documenting a combination of sustained money laundering on the part of Trump providing information to the Russians for ad buys
2. Trump decides that he needs to do something presidential and decides on a decapitation strike
3. Bye bye Seoul

[The_Badger]

I truly despair. God help America! Your president, Donald Trump, doesn't seem to have an iota of intelligence when it comes to international diplomacy.

The latest: Trump tweets that Kim Jong-un is the "Rocket Man". Name-calling at this highest level of politics, with so much going on, borders on total stupidity, in my opinion.

Just ignore the vile outbursts of Kim Jong-un, Donald Trump. Getting involved in a Twitter spat just isn't helping here.

Donald Trump still thinks he is on TV talking to an apprentice. For goodness sake grow up and realise that the whole world is looking towards you for strong and imaginative leadership: this isn't a school playground scenario.

[Winstonm]

 The_Badger, on 2017-September-17, 14:00, said:

I truly despair. God help America! Your president, Donald Trump, doesn't seem to have an iota of intelligence when it comes to international diplomacy.

The latest: Trump tweets that Kim Jong-un is the "Rocket Man". Name-calling at this highest level of politics, with so much going on, borders on total stupidity, in my opinion.

Just ignore the vile outbursts of Kim Jong-un, Donald Trump. Getting involved in a Twitter spat just isn't helping here.

Donald Trump still thinks he is on TV talking to an apprentice. For goodness sake grow up and realise that the whole world is looking towards you for strong and imaginative leadership: this isn't a school playground scenario.

The truly frightening thing is that 62 million people cast a vote for the moron.

[Al_U_Card]

 Winstonm, on 2017-September-17, 15:17, said:

The truly frightening thing is that 62 million people cast a vote for the moron.

Count the votes cast for criminals, knuckle-heads, predators and OMG golfers and you get a pretty good picture of the kind of democracy that is still better than every other system of government.

[Zelandakh]

 Al_U_Card, on 2017-September-17, 15:56, said:

Count the votes cast for criminals, knuckle-heads, predators and OMG golfers and you get a pretty good picture of the kind of democracy that is still better than every other system of government.

I would argue that the system of government that America helped to create for Germany after WWII is orders of magnitude better than the original from the Founding Fathers, though I can understand misplaced patriotism being unable to find fault with their work.

[Al_U_Card]

 Zelandakh, on 2017-September-17, 17:56, said:

I would argue that the system of government that America helped to create for Germany after WWII is orders of magnitude better than the original from the Founding Fathers, though I can understand misplaced patriotism being unable to find fault with their work.

I suppose that Churchill (as badly as the quote was presented) liked the US or democracy but his patriotism (as mine) is not American nor is it misplaced. Ad homs are just part of the preaching?

[Zelandakh]

 Al_U_Card, on 2017-September-17, 18:55, said:

I suppose that Churchill (as badly as the quote was presented) liked the US or democracy but his patriotism (as mine) is not American nor is it misplaced. Ad homs are just part of the preaching?

Not sure to which ad hom you are referring. I am also not sure which Churchill quote you mean - his best known is:

Quote

Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time

...but what bearing that has on the relative merits of the two system of government under discussion I am not sure.

[jjbrr]

In case you want a reminder of what presidents sound like when they aren't threatening nuclear war:

"I come before you humbled by the responsibility that the American people have placed upon me, mindful of the enormous challenges of our moment in history, and determined to act boldly and collectively on behalf of justice and prosperity at home and abroad.

I have been in office for just nine months -- though some days it seems a lot longer. I am well aware of the expectations that accompany my presidency around the world. These expectations are not about me. Rather, they are rooted, I believe, in a discontent with a status quo that has allowed us to be increasingly defined by our differences, and outpaced by our problems. But they are also rooted in hope -- the hope that real change is possible, and the hope that America will be a leader in bringing about such change.

I took office at a time when many around the world had come to view America with skepticism and distrust. Part of this was due to misperceptions and misinformation about my country. Part of this was due to opposition to specific policies, and a belief that on certain critical issues, America has acted unilaterally, without regard for the interests of others. And this has fed an almost reflexive anti-Americanism, which too often has served as an excuse for collective inaction.

Now, like all of you, my responsibility is to act in the interest of my nation and my people, and I will never apologize for defending those interests. But it is my deeply held belief that in the year 2009 -- more than at any point in human history -- the interests of nations and peoples are shared."

[nige1]

https://www.youtube....h?v=xFedyqandWU

[RedSpawn]

 nige1, on 2017-September-21, 14:49, said:

https://www.youtube....h?v=xFedyqandWU

This is what ticks me off. I wish our federal government would take a more proactive stance on explaining the context of our foreign policy toward Iraq, Iran, and North Korea. I almost get the feeling that our foreign policy gets lost in the news shuffle by more salacious news topics like a teenager found dead in a freezer.

Bush labeled Iraq an axis of evil and decimated Iraq for not surrendering weapons of mass destruction it no longer had. That was our pretext. We also eliminated Saddam Hussein under this threat and the world watched one of our biggest and costliest military intelligence failures.

Now we have another member of the axis of evil going rogue. After watching what happened to Iraq, we are asking North Korea to stop their nuclear program and be a good neighbor and feel safe while being labeled an axis of evil by the world's largest military?

Is that realistic?

Russia has basically said, "We condemn North Korea's provocative actions but given the United States' aggressive cowboy diplomacy in the Middle East, we UNDERSTAND why they won't give up their nuclear program".

Our cowboy diplomacy doesn't come for free. We have a federal government that spends trillions of dollars annually but refuses to put its foreign policy in a nice concise, transparent, historical context for public consumption. Where are the government officials "breaking down" our position and involvement on this matter to the masses?

You won't find them as they believe our foreign policy is too "complicated" for the average American to digest so we don't receive a full and fair "Reader's Digest" version of our approach. Instead, we hear a cacophony of war drums.

[y66]

Why one of the smartest North Korea experts we know just got a lot more worried about war by Max Fisher and Amanda Taub.

[The_Badger]

 y66, on 2017-September-22, 06:46, said:

Why one of the smartest North Korea experts we know just got a lot more worried about war by Max Fisher and Amanda Taub.

This is an interesting theory, but Trump and his advisers perhaps feel they are in a no-win scenario. Either they "mow the lawn" now - a Noam Chomsky idiom - or let the grass grow higher and higher until it becomes impossible to deal with.

Even though I do not have much time for Trump, and his UN speech was unbelievable, shooting from the hip with all guns blazing, I sometimes wonder what I would do in his shoes? There's no easy solution, I feel, except if Kim Jong-in abandons his rhetoric and nuclear aims and comes to the negotiating table, something that is very unlikely to occur.

Just what happens next is anyone's guess, but I do agree with the article that war is now a distinct possibility - sadly.

[barmar]

I agree, this is a very difficult situation for anyone. The problem is that Trump is not "anyone", so that makes it more worrying.

I wonder if Kim has chosen to escalate his activity since Trump took office preceisely because he knows that we have one of the least prepared Presidents in charge.

[Winstonm]

 The_Badger, on 2017-September-24, 04:36, said:

This is an interesting theory, but Trump and his advisers perhaps feel they are in a no-win scenario. Either they "mow the lawn" now - a Noam Chomsky idiom - or let the grass grow higher and higher until it becomes impossible to deal with.

Even though I do not have much time for Trump, and his UN speech was unbelievable, shooting from the hip with all guns blazing, I sometimes wonder what I would do in his shoes? There's no easy solution, I feel, except if Kim Jong-in abandons his rhetoric and nuclear aims and comes to the negotiating table, something that is very unlikely to occur.

Just what happens next is anyone's guess, but I do agree with the article that war is now a distinct possibility - sadly.

Trump and Tillerson have gutted the State Department - how can anyone expect any reasonable outcome when you eliminate all the grown-ups in the room and put the first graders in charge of the world?

[barmar]

 Winstonm, on 2017-September-24, 07:24, said:

Trump and Tillerson have gutted the State Department - how can anyone expect any reasonable outcome when you eliminate all the grown-ups in the room and put the first graders in charge of the world?

And his Secretary of Defense even said that this is a dangerous move -- he doesn't want military action, and needs better diplomacy to prevent it.

[Al_U_Card]

 Winstonm, on 2017-September-24, 07:24, said:

Trump and Tillerson have gutted the State Department - how can anyone expect any reasonable outcome when you eliminate all the grown-ups in the room and put the first graders in charge of the world?

That would be the same State Dept. that brought us Benghazi? Or was that just Hil in action? At least the 1st graders might try something new that could work. Teddy Roosevelt's big stick has not worked too well. Perhaps respect might be an option? Perhaps when you "know" what is "right" for others, it is a moot point?

[Winstonm]

Having first-graders in charge has worked so well that we now have North Korea threatening an atmospheric test of a hydrogen bomb over the Pacific Ocean, something that has not happened since 1980, not to mention that there exists the very real threat that any test could go horribly wrong and explode too close to South Korea or Japan, not to mention the fallout that will spread worldwide due to wind currents, all the while our tantrum-thrower-in-chief and his personal insults have been interpreted by North Korea as an attack on the country and North Korea has announced it would start shooting down American warplanes even if they were not in North Korean airspace - which they have done in the past.

Educated people are saying we are closer to nuclear war than anytime since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Here's a little aside to Donald Trump: You're no Jack Kennedy! That should terrify us all, including deluded Canadians.

[barmar]

 Winstonm, on 2017-September-25, 20:38, said:

Educated people are saying we are closer to nuclear war than anytime since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Here's a little aside to Donald Trump: You're no Jack Kennedy! That should terrify us all, including deluded Canadians.

He's not even a George W. Bush. It's hard to imagine that we have a President who makes me look back fondly on the foreign policy of both Bushes. Yeah, they got us into interminable wars in the Middle East, and probably precipitated the rise of ISIS, but these never seemed like they might result in an existential crisis.

[Zelandakh]

 Winstonm, on 2017-September-25, 20:38, said:

Educated people are saying we are closer to nuclear war than anytime since the Cuban Missile Crisis.

Then they need to re-educate themselves. You and they are forgetting 1983. I doubt we are closer to nuclear war now than then.

And thinking of 1983, whatever happened to the SDI? A "star wars" style defence system would be rather useful right now. At the time it was written that we needed about 10 more years of research to make it feasible - that was 30 years ago! Perhaps someone should consider using some of that military budget Redspawn is so obsessed about to re-open that program or at the very least bump up the priority of its grandchild (the MDA).

[jjbrr]

Zel, THAAD?