[Stephen Tu]

 dlittmann, on 2018-May-29, 12:52, said:

I'm not sure where you think a passed hand by partner is going to give you a reverse to show a 4H/4S hand - but that would be the bid if it went:

What do you think responder is supposed to bid with Axxx Kxxx xxx xx or Axxx Kxxxx x xxx in response to 1D?

You seem to be massively confused about how standard bidding works. Responder, with 4-4/4-5/4-6 in the majors, is always supposed to bid 1H first, whether a passed hand or not. He is not expecting to reverse into spades, except, perhaps in the case that opener bids 2nt showing extra values. He only expects to support spades if opener bids 1S or 2S instead of supporting hearts.
How this normally works (if responder is a passed hand, just ignore possibility of responder forcing game unless opener has shown extras) :

• case 1: opener raises 1H to 2H. Responder passes or invites as appropriate. With a min you play 2H. With more, with 4cd spades and 4hearts only, responder might try 2s in case opener's style is to raise with 4351 minimums (some people prefer 1S with this, others prefer 2H), which can uncover the spade fit. Or you just play 3H or 4H, or 2nt/3nt if responder offers and opener is allowed to raise on 3 cd hearts.
• case 2: opener raises 1H to 3H or 4H, or some artificial bid showing a very strong hand with a 4+ cd heart fit. You play in hearts at some level.
• case 3: opener bids 1S. Now you find your spades, opener has 4 spades but not 4H. Responder raises to some level of spades, 2s/3s/4s, or if unpassed hand and slam aspirations may employ 4th suit forcing or xyz to set spades as trumps in a forcing manner.
• case 4: opener bids 1nt. There are two styles here. In style 1, opener denies 4 cd spades. So now you don't have to worry about missing spade fit, you can use gadget to find 5-3 heart fit if have game aspirations. If you are weak you just pass 1nt. In another style, opener always bids 1nt with balanced hands and can still have 4 cd spades. In the other style, if responder is min you miss your 4-4 spade fit, oh well. If responder is stronger, they can use NMF/checkback/xynt/or whatever to find 4-4 spades. In some schemes that allow opener to conceal spades, the sequence 1m-1h-1nt-2s shows specifically 4-4 and invitational values, nf (so worst case opener rebids 2nt, with invitational values hopefully this is still making).
• case 5: opener rebids or jump rebids his suit: opener denies spades so you no longer worry about finding 4-4 fit.
• case 6: opener rebids in a lower ranking suit (1d-1h-2c): opener denies spades, with a min you pass or preference to 2d, or 2H with 4-6, again you don't worry about finding spades.
• case 7: opener reverses (1c-1h-2d): again opener denies spades so you don't worry about 4-4 spade fit.
• case 8: opener rebids 2nt. In most styles this does NOT deny 4 cd spades. So here, and only here, by agreement will a weak responder (but strong enough for game opposite 18-19, i.e. 7 count or so) bid 3S to find a 4-4 spade fit. You have to differentiate between 4=5 in the majors and 4=4 in the majors. It's arbitrary, usually one of these bids 1d-1h-2nt-3s, while the other bids 1d-1h-2nt-(3c/3d, whichever is used as an artificial checkback for major fits).
• case 9: opener jump shifts into spades, showing spades and a GF, and unbalanced, responder raise spades and off you go.

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N:P E:P S:1D W:P N:(already passed, less than 12 points here) 1H E:P S:2NT (or 2S) (Reverse showing 18+ HCP) W:P N:3S (in an opening sequence, unpassed this is a 13+ responder hand, already denied having 13+ points)

If opener rebids 2nt, you don't need 13+ for responder to reverse into spades. 7+ is enough, because 18+7 is 25; if opener doesn't have spade fit will bid 3nt and you are not too high.

Reverse by responder only promises 13+ (or in a few specific cases, inv+) values if opener can be MINIMUM. Opener who rebid 2nt relieves responder of that necessity.
You also don't need opening values to reverse if opener jumps in his own suit showing extras; i.e. 1c-1h-3c-3s, you might bid this way with 9/10+ and no stop in diamonds, hoping for opener to bid 3nt with diamonds stopped, else might support hearts or rebid clubs, after which you will decide what the next best move is.

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But hey, if ya'll swear up and down ya'll wouldn't be pissed at partner using a responder reverse with 7 HCP, let that system work for you - I've been yelled at WAY too many times for doing exactly that by too many very high ranked players.

You have sequences confused. You shouldn't reverse as responder (e.g. 1d-1h-2d-2s) with minimum values if opener can be MINIMUM, rebidding their suit cheaply, rebidding 1nt, bidding a new suit at the 1 level, rebidding in a lower ranking suit. That kind of thing requires a strong hand. But reversing when opener has shown enough extra that you are fine to going game is a completely separate matter.
It's absolutely standard to bid 1h with 4-4 in the majors. The expectation is up the line bidding; opener either fits hearts or not, with a min most people bid 1s if no heart fit and you find the spade fit. If opener shows a min and denies spades, by rebidding their suit, or 1nt playing the denies spades style, RESPONDER THEN IGNORES THE SPADES LATER. With a min responder will pass opener's min rebid, and no major fit has been lost.

[Stephen Tu]

 dlittmann, on 2018-May-29, 12:54, said:

Since when would that show 5/4? It shows 4/4 in every book I've ever read, and could be 3/4 depending on how your partnership opens 4-3-3-3 hands with 18-19 points.

For most people, 1d-1h-2s promises 4S 5+D unless exactly 4=1=4=4 shape and 19+ HCP. Because balanced hand would always rebid 2nt. Also, this sequence is considered a "jump shift", not a "reverse". That's because you have a choice of 1s and 2s to show spades. Reverses by definition are *non-jumps* into a new suit, in an inconvenient order forcing partner if he wants to support your first suit to bid at the 3 level. Jump shifts are usually played as GF, reverses by opener not. Reverses by responder are GF (but as noted in previous post, you don't need as much to GF if opener has shown significant extras).

With 4333 18-19, 99% of natural bidders open 1c and rebid 2nt. With 4342/4243, 18-19, open 1d and rebid 2nt (there are a few good players like awm who prefer to bid 1s on these, with 2nt denying spades, but it's a small minority who do this).

[Stephen Tu]

 dlittmann, on 2018-May-29, 13:08, said:

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

Was this MP or IMPS? I think it's not completely unreasonable to simulate that hearts in a 5-2 outscores 3nt on average at MP. And at MP you really want to play in hearts not diamonds if not bidding slam, and hearts is playable. It rates to be a good spot if you have a heart card 9 or higher. It's true the auction went off the rails after 4H; the problem is it thinks 4H is a signoff and that you are never supposed to bid over that, playing North for 6-4 or something like that. Probably 5d should be redefined as 2H/6d or 2H/5D instead of cue bid, it's an auction that wasn't anticipated to exist.

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I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S.

No, it will pass after 1d-1h-2s-3d-3nt.

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What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

That's a debatable style issue. Diamonds could well play better than 3nt, it's not unreasonable to bring them into play.

[virgosrock]

 dlittmann, on 2018-May-29, 13:08, said:

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.

no chastisement intended by me. perhaps the system you are used to is different.GUBBO system is what most in this thread have quoted.

vrock

[helene_t]

Hi Dlittmann,

I appreciate that you don't agree with the robot's choices in this auction and the style it has been programmed to play. It may well be that you play different styles with your regular human partners and that it is therefore frustrating to play with GIB.

However: This is the way GIB works, and GIB has zero ability to adapt to your style so you have to adapt to its style.

In this case, as you can read from the comments of several very experienced 2/1 players in this thread, GIBs style and choices are completely normal. That doesn't mean that they are best: you can agree to play differently with your regular partners. But it may be useful for you to learn that in this case, the GIB style is also roughly what you should expect from an advanced human partner, if you just agreed with them to play "vanilla 2/1" or some such.

In summary:

- 1♥ doesn't deny four spades. This is universal in every natural bidding system I have ever heard of.
- The 2NT rebid shows a balanced hand with 18-19 points. 2-3 hearts, 2-4 spades. While it is slightly differently defined in some exotic styles, this is nearly universal. The hand you held here certainly bids 2♠.
- 3♦ is normal with this hand in mainstream methods although some will judge just to look for a hearts fit forgetting about the diamonds. But 3♦ certainly isn't a misbid.
- 4♥ is just to play. Since responder is captain here, opener is expected to pass it. Opener bidding on after this is therefore confusing and may lead to misunderstandings.

[kenberg]

 dlittmann, on 2018-May-29, 13:08, said:

Well, I appreciate the bidding advice - but since regardless - the bot went insane thinking there was AT BEST a 5/2 heart hit and choosing it over a 5/3+ diamond fit - and then rebidding a lousy ass suit that had no chance, especially when it was denied 3 times in the auction, that the South hand had any values in that suit.

I'm 100% fully convinced that the bot would have done exactly the same bidding if I bid 2NT or 2S. What's even worse is over my 2NT bid, the bot could have (and should have) bid 3C (New Minor Forcing) to show the 5th heart - which it did not. The bot never should have had interest in slam - except that it had 5 diamonds and an actual known fit - which it wasn't interested in due to the weakness of those diamonds.

But regardless - thank you for the chastisement on using a wasted 2S reverse when the successive heart bids are the problem.

You have made it clear that "appreciate" is being used sarcastically. That's ok, I can handle it.

I mentioned that there are some issues here that partnerships might want to discuss. As Helene remarks, many are part of standard bidding. or at least what I, and she, think of as standard bidding. For example, after 1D-1H-2NT I would bid 3D with the North hand whether I were playing with a regular partner or with a first time pick up. It is a natural forcing bid showing diamonds. The hand does make 12 tricks in diamonds and if we are gong to get to this slam then showing diamond support is essential. And, if there is not a slam, it might well be that 4H or 5D makes while 3NT does not. So 3D seems like a 100% choice to me. After 3D, opener can bid 3H if he has three hearts. He has denied four hearts with his 2NT, he has promised 2 or 3, if he has 3 he bids 3H, if he has 2 he does something else. Bidding 3NT over 3D shows lack of interest in a diamond slam.


Now I will go to some things where not everyone does things the same way.

Now let's look at the situation with spades after 1m-1H-2NT. Surely responder can have four spades so the important question is whether opener can also have four spades. I have been playing quite a bit with the Gibs lately and I am pretty sure that they play that indeed opener can have four spades. You have the hand records so you can click on the 2NT call and see if it allows for opener to have four spades. I think, but I am not sure, it will. So if opener and responder each can have four spades then this must be dealt with. The obvious way to do that is to have 1m-1H-2NT-3S to show four spades. I like simple approaches and so that's what I use if discussed, and probably what I would do if not discussed. Opener has shown 18 or 19 points so the 3S bid does not require the usual values for the reverse.
Now after 1m-1H-2NT it is true that responder might have five hearts and four spades. How to deal with that? My own preference, still in KISS mode, is for responder to bid 3H. We do not really need this to show 6 cards, here is why: The 2NT call shows at least two hearts. No, you didn't have two hearts but the 2NT does show 2 or 3 hearts. So if responder has six, he is confident of an 8 card fit. Over responder's 3H opener can raise to 4H if he has 3, or he can bid 3S if he has four of them, or he can bid 3NT if he has two hearts and at most three spades.

Playing as above, then 1m-1H-2NT-3H has to be forcing. This is a slight drawback, but it seldom is really a problem, especially if the pair is playing weak jump shifts (Gib doesn't play WJS). Playing weak jump shifts if responder has six hearts and a hand where he would want to get out in 3H after 1m-1H-2NT then in fact the auction probably began 1m-2H. And if responder has only five hearts it is far from clear that after 1m-1H-2NT he wants to get out in 3H.

As mentioned, not everyone would agree with what I say above. Everyone I know would bid 3D with the actual N hand after 1D-1H-2NT, that's not where I expect disagreement, but I am sure there would be disagreement about what to do after 1D-1H-2NT with five hearts and four spades. I play somewhat casually and so I see simple and natural as the best way for infrequent situations. 1D-1H-2NT-3D shows diamonds, 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows spades, 1D-1H-2NT-3H asks partner to bid 4H with 3 hearts, to bid 3S with four spades, and to bid 3NT with neither. Most of the time this works fine. If I play in the Bermuda Bowl I will use something more advanced.


Incidentally, if you want to test your belief that the bot would have done the same had you bid 2S instead of 2NT you can do that. I have done such things. I forget the details but if you rent a bot for the day you can start a table, import a hand, seat yourself and three bots, and try it out. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write down the details. I have done it, it was interesting, but I forget exactly how. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write out just how to do it.I am confident it would begin 1D-1H-2S-3D. I strongly expect that the bots would reach 6D, but I would not want to stake my life on it.

[virgosrock]

 kenberg, on 2018-May-30, 07:00, said:

You have made it clear that "appreciate" is being used sarcastically. That's ok, I can handle it.

I mentioned that there are some issues here that partnerships might want to discuss. As Helene remarks, many are part of standard bidding. or at least what I, and she, think of as standard bidding. For example, after 1D-1H-2NT I would bid 3D with the North hand whether I were playing with a regular partner or with a first time pick up. It is a natural forcing bid showing diamonds. The hand does make 12 tricks in diamonds and if we are gong to get to this slam then showing diamond support is essential. And, if there is not a slam, it might well be that 4H or 5D makes while 3NT does not. So 3D seems like a 100% choice to me. After 3D, opener can bid 3H if he has three hearts. He has denied four hearts with his 2NT, he has promised 2 or 3, if he has 3 he bids 3H, if he has 2 he does something else. Bidding 3NT over 3D shows lack of interest in a diamond slam.


Now I will go to some things where not everyone does things the same way.

Now let's look at the situation with spades after 1m-1H-2NT. Surely responder can have four spades so the important question is whether opener can also have four spades. I have been playing quite a bit with the Gibs lately and I am pretty sure that they play that indeed opener can have four spades. You have the hand records so you can click on the 2NT call and see if it allows for opener to have four spades. I think, but I am not sure, it will. So if opener and responder each can have four spades then this must be dealt with. The obvious way to do that is to have 1m-1H-2NT-3S to show four spades. I like simple approaches and so that's what I use if discussed, and probably what I would do if not discussed. Opener has shown 18 or 19 points so the 3S bid does not require the usual values for the reverse.
Now after 1m-1H-2NT it is true that responder might have five hearts and four spades. How to deal with that? My own preference, still in KISS mode, is for responder to bid 3H. We do not really need this to show 6 cards, here is why: The 2NT call shows at least two hearts. No, you didn't have two hearts but the 2NT does show 2 or 3 hearts. So if responder has six, he is confident of an 8 card fit. Over responder's 3H opener can raise to 4H if he has 3, or he can bid 3S if he has four of them, or he can bid 3NT if he has two hearts and at most three spades.

Playing as above, then 1m-1H-2NT-3H has to be forcing. This is a slight drawback, but it seldom is really a problem, especially if the pair is playing weak jump shifts (Gib doesn't play WJS). Playing weak jump shifts if responder has six hearts and a hand where he would want to get out in 3H after 1m-1H-2NT then in fact the auction probably began 1m-2H. And if responder has only five hearts it is far from clear that after 1m-1H-2NT he wants to get out in 3H.

As mentioned, not everyone would agree with what I say above. Everyone I know would bid 3D with the actual N hand after 1D-1H-2NT, that's not where I expect disagreement, but I am sure there would be disagreement about what to do after 1D-1H-2NT with five hearts and four spades. I play somewhat casually and so I see simple and natural as the best way for infrequent situations. 1D-1H-2NT-3D shows diamonds, 1D-1H-2NT-3S shows spades, 1D-1H-2NT-3H asks partner to bid 4H with 3 hearts, to bid 3S with four spades, and to bid 3NT with neither. Most of the time this works fine. If I play in the Bermuda Bowl I will use something more advanced.


Incidentally, if you want to test your belief that the bot would have done the same had you bid 2S instead of 2NT you can do that. I have done such things. I forget the details but if you rent a bot for the day you can start a table, import a hand, seat yourself and three bots, and try it out. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write down the details. I have done it, it was interesting, but I forget exactly how. Maybe someone who knows more than I do can write out just how to do it.I am confident it would begin 1D-1H-2S-3D. I strongly expect that the bots would reach 6D, but I would not want to stake my life on it.

Hi Dlittmann

This sequence happened today. It is "similar" and illustrated GUBBO's "thinking".

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I could have opened 2C but things get really hairy after 2C-2D-3C. Not sure why I bid 3H but what the heck. Just wanted some info and I know GUBBO does not have 4H.

Just an example.

vrock