[Kungsgeten]

I know there's a lot of topics about the best use for a 2D opening, but I wanted some suggestions specific to the system we're playing. We've been using 2D as 18-19 NT for a while, which has worked quite well. However we feel that our system could be a bit more aggressive, and we're thinking about using 2D for something else. Here's the opening structure:

1C = 12-14 NT (could be 4-4-1-4 or [34]15) or 17+ hcp. We tend to open 16+ clubs with 1C. If diamonds if the primary suit we have 20+ hcp and if balanced we would have 18+ (used to be 20+).
1D = 11-19, 4+ diamonds. Unbalanced, could have longer clubs.
1M = 11-16, 5+M. 11-13 if balanced.
1NT = (14)15-17, including 4-4-1-4.
2C = 5C and 4M, or 6+C. 12-15.
2D = ??
2M = Weak.
2NT = 1st non-vul: Bad preempt in any suit. 3rd: Weak 5-5 in any two suits. Otherwise: Weak 5-5 majors or minors.
3X = Sound preempt, except third seat.

We can't use 2D as a multi or any other weak bid which doesn't promise a specific suit (well, we could do that but then we'd have to change our 2NT opening to promise a specific suit). Precision 2D would fill a small systemic gap, but we tend to do fine on those hands anyway. Some variants I've been considering:

- Weak 2D. I have good experiences playing this, and it is pretty safe. The frequency is a bit low though.

- Loose weak 2D. I'm thinking weak unbalanced hands with 5+D (could have 4M or 4+C). Frequency goes up but it also preempts partner a lot more. Perhaps third hand?

- Diamonds and a major. I'm not thinking Frelling 2D (4-4 or better in diamonds and a major), but rather 5+D and a four card major. I think it could put a lot of pressure on the opponents, since take-out double shape will occur less frequently.

- Ekrens (both majors). Have played this, but not enough to have strong feelings about it. We'd probably play it as at least 5-4 majors.

- Transfer preempt. Perhaps showing a weak two in hearts, or some kind of strong two-suiter(s). Then we could use 2H as Ekrens or Muiderberg.

- "Bailey two". Something like 5D332 or 2-2-4-5 or 6D322, with perhaps 11-14 hcp (or weaker). This would remove 5D332 from the 1C opening. The main problem probably is playing at the two-level when others are comfortable playing 1NT.

- Intermediate diamonds. I don't think this fit very well into our system, due to 1D already being unbalanced and lowish frequency. I've been considering non-vul using 2D as perhaps 5+D and 4H, opening strength, and to put the 15-17 NT into 1D. Now 1NT could be 9-11. I do enjoy the natural 1D opening though.

So, are there more nice options? We're not searching for ultra-aggressive, more like something that can annoy the opponents but work out okay when its our board.

[PrecisionL]

I would play 2♦ as multi with weak options and a strong option, balanced 18-19.

This frees up your 2M openings for something else, Roman, canape, or?

[awm]

It might be interesting to try 2♦ = weak with 4+♦ and 4+♥. This has the advantage of both suits being known (easy to raise the preempt) as well as diamonds being one of the suits (somewhat restricts opponents defensive options).

[nullve]

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-August-05, 07:53, said:

We're not searching for ultra-aggressive, more like something that can annoy the opponents but work out okay when its our board.

You could play 2♦ as a "canapé preempt" with spades as anchor suit. My preferred strength is "0-9(10)" (doesn't meet the rule of 19) in 1st seat and shapes include

* 4S4D(41)
* 4S5m(31)
* 40(54)
* 4S6+m
* 4450
* 4S5+H
* 5S6+H,

but currently not 4S5m22, which I prefer to open with Pass = "0-10 BAL".

2♦-?:

(with

non-MAX = doesn't meet the rule of 16, but Responder assumes the rule of 13 is met)
MAX = meets the rule of 16, but not the rule of 19)

P = allowed
2♥ = P/C OR INV, 3-S5+H
...P = 4+ H OR hand doesn't meet the rule of 13
...2♠ = 3- H, hand meets the rule of 13
......P = allowed
......2N = < INV, "bid your minor!"
......3♣ = INV, 3-S5(+)H2+C ("P/C")
......3♦ = INV, 3-S5(+)H1-C
......3♥ = INV, 3-S6+H
2♠ = to play
2N = GF relay
...E.g. (what nullve-nullve play):
...3♣ = 3-H5+D OR (if possible) 4144
......3♦ = relay
.........3♥+ = A(♦). See A(m) below.
......(...)
...3♦ = 4+ H
......3♥ = relay, aksing for 5+ H unless slam interest
.........3♠ = MAX, 4 H
.........3N = non-MAX, 4 H
.........4♣ = MAX, 4S5+H
.........4♦ = MAX, 5S5+H
.........4♥ = non-MAX, 5+ H
...3♥+ = A(♣). See A(m) below.
3♣ = INV, 3-S4-H2+C ("P/C")
...E.g. (what nullve-nullve play):
...P = non-MAX, (4)5+ C
...3♦ = non-MAX, (4)5+ D
...3♥ = non-MAX, 4+ H
...3♠ = MAX, either 5+ m or 4 H
......3N = to play opposite 3-H5+m
.........P = 3-H5+m
.........4♣ = 4441
.........4♦ = 4450
......(...)
...3N = MAX, 4S5H
...4♣ = MAX, 4S6+H
...4♦ = MAX, 5S6+H
...(...)
3♦ = INV, 3-S4-H1-C
3♥ = INV, 4+ S
3♠ = preempt
(...)

A(m):

3♥ = non-MAX, either 3-H5+m or, if m=♦, 4144
...3♠ = relay, asking for 3 H unles slam interest
......3N = 2- H
......4♣+ = 3 H
...(...)
3♠ = MAX, 2-H5+m
3N = MAX, 3 H
4♣(m=♦) = MAX, 4144 .

[helene_t]

What about a canape with four spades?

[Vampyr]

Numeric one where are you? We need you.

[fromageGB]

I'd go with Ekrens, but I don't see the advantage in it being an unspecified 5 in the {45}xx. I like 44xx as minimum length.
Partner normally picks a 2M, but 2NT is a generic ask while 3m is game invitation in the corresponding major.
Ekrens also goes well with a strong option, if you have something not covered well in your 1♣, opener rebidding over a 2M reply.

[rbforster]

6 card regular weak 2♦ is quite effective with opps sometimes not having both majors to double comfortably.
5♦/4M or longer seems reasonable too, DONT style.
Some people liked this for showing both minors, 5D/4C or longer. I haven’t really tried it, but supposedly worked ok.

[straube]

What would your NT ladder be?

I think 2D as 18-19 closes a gap; you use 2N for a preempt and 1C-1D, 1M is usually 12-14 balanced?

[Kungsgeten]

Thanks for the suggestions!

PrecisionL: We'd probably play multi if we could, but as I wrote we can't right now due to the 2NT opening. I do not think a multi combined with 18-19 NT is a good idea though, but I'm not sure.

awm: Both red suits could work. A downside might be that it is easy for them to focus on the spade suit?

nullve & helene_t: I think Swedish pair Nilsland & Fallenius used to play 2D as 4S and longer minor. I used to play 2M as canapé preempts, which was fun. I think there's a bit of an upside to promising the suit you open, since it usually puts more pressure on second hand.

fromageGB: Yes, perhaps 4-4 is okay, I was just thinking that there's not a lot of playing strength in a 4-4 hand. The downside of a strong option must be that responder can't pass the 2D opening? I used to do do that pretty frequently (when non-vul) when playing a weak multi.

rbforster: I haven't seen it used as both minors, except in some systems where it shows constructive values.

straube: 18-19 NT (or even 17-19 NT) is usually included in 1C in these kind of systems. Polish Club includes all 18+ NT hands in 1C, but many Swedish Club systems seems to have a strong 2NT opening. The main reason for us using 2D as 18-19 NT is that it can be awkward when the opponents interfere: responder will think we have the weak hand unless proven wrong, and the bidding could be high when opener gets a rebid. This is to me the main flaw of this system compared to a big club: opener can more easily pass with some hands, since responder knows he's strong. Any way, we're thinking of using this NT ladder:

1C-1D; Pass/1M = 12-14 NT, 1M could be a three-card suit. Our 1H rebid is forcing, since we're including strong unbalanced hands with extras (but not enough to force game).
1NT = 15-17.
1C-1D; 1NT = 18-19 NT, or 22+ NT, or a GF hand but not with 5-5 and not with primary spades.
1C-1D; 1NT-2C; 2D = 18-19.
1C-1D; 2D = 20-21.
1C-1D; 1NT-2C; 2NT = 22-24.
1C-1D; 1NT-2C; 2H-2S; 2NT = 25+ (2H is "Kokish" like 2C-2D; 2H playing a strong 2C opening).

[Kungsgeten]

I wonder if it could work to play 2D as something like "4S and 5H, or bad 6S". If we already open bad hands with 6S it doesn't make much sense, but perhaps otherwise?

[straube]

Thanks. I think you need that 2D for some strong hands. I would want 1C-1D, 1N to be 18-20 or so. Not forcing. Maybe Adam can sort it out for you. What are the strong distributional hands that go into your 1C-1D. 1N presently? Maybe those and 21-22 balanced can be your 2D opening.

[Kungsgeten]

 straube, on 2018-August-06, 15:29, said:

I think you need that 2D for some strong hands. I would want 1C-1D, 1N to be 18-20 or so. Not forcing. Maybe Adam can sort it out for you. What are the strong distributional hands that go into your 1C-1D. 1N presently? Maybe those and 21-22 balanced can be your 2D opening.

Having the 1NT rebid be 18-20 NT and non-forcing is ofcourse nice. Since we're already forced to the 2-level using our 2D Mexican opening, and are surviving it, we're thinking that we could as well use the 1NT rebid as forcing to bid other strong hands more comfortably. Our current rebid structure after 1C-1D:

Pass = 12--14, usually 5D.
1H = Forcing. a) 3--4 and 12-14. b) "Acol two bid" in any suit, not enough to force game (about 19--22). [Polish/Swedish Club usually plays this as weak or 17--21]
1S = Not forcing. a) 3--4 and 12--14. b) 4+S and 17--19 hcp. [Polish/Swedish Club usually plays this as weak or 17--21]
1NT = 18-19 NT or 22+ NT or any GF not covered below.
2C = About 16-19, not 4S.
2D = 20-21 NT (we open 1D with 11-19).
2H = 17-19, not 4S.
2S = Natural GF.
2NT = GF 5-5 diamonds + another.
3C = GF 5-5 clubs + major.
3D = GF 5-5 majors.
3M = Nat GF, sets suit as trumps.
4m = Nat GF, sets suit as trumps.

And after 1C-1D; 1NT:

2C = Waiting.
2D = 5+H, weak or GF (vs 18-19) with good suit.
2H = 5+S, weak or GF (vs 18-19) with good suit.
2S = 6+m with good suit.
2NT = 5-5 diamonds + another.
3C = 5-5 clubs + major.
3D = 5-5 majors.

A nice thing about the forcing 1NT rebid is that opener has already "hogged the NT". After the waiting bid, opener can describe his hand:

1C-1D; 1NT-2C;
2D = 18-19 NT.
2H = Kokish, nat GF or 25+ NT.
2S = GF with 5+C (responder can relay with 2NT, and then like 3C+ below).
2NT = 22-24 NT.
3C = GF with 5+D and 4-card side suit (3D asks).
3D = GF with 6+D, no shortness.
3M/NT = GF with 6+D and shortness low to high.
4C = Too good for 3NT.

The strong variants in the 1H rebid could be expanded, and it might not be necessary to include special bids for GF 5-5 hands. For instance, we could play (only including strong variants):

1C-1D;
1H = a) Any Acol two. b) GF with hearts. c) 25+ NT.
1S = 4+S 17-19
1NT = 18-20
2C = 16-19
2D = GF with 4M and 5+m, or 23-24 NT.
2H = 17-19.
2S = Nat GF.
2NT = 21-22.
3m = Nat GF.

Some variant of that might be better.

[straube]

How often does responder bid after 1C-1D, 2C?

After 1C-1D

P-5D
1S-4S (could be 17-19)
1N-other, weak NT
2C-5C, 12-19

1H-strong meanings
.....etc-relaying shape with 6-7
..........opener may break relay to suggest a part score
.....1S-0-5
..........1N-18-20 bal
..........2C-artificial gf?
..........2D/M-natural, nf.

[straube]

After 1C-1D

Pass = 12-14, usually 5D.
1H = Forcing. a) "Acol two bid" in any suit, not enough to force game (about 19--22) or b) 18-20 balanced or c) 23+ balanced
.....1S-other
..........1N-18-20 bal
..........2N-23+ bal (GF)
..........etc-Acol two bid
.....1N-6-7, clubs, GF
.....2C-6-7, diamonds, GF
.....2D-6-7, hearts, GF
.....2H-6-7, spades, GF
.....2S-7-11 bal, no major
1S = Not forcing. a) 3--4 and 12--14. b) 4+S and 17--19 hcp.
1NT = 3--4H and 12-14 (not 4S or 5m).
2C = About 16-19 (but less than Acol two bid) or 12-14, not 4S.
.....2D-0-5 with 6+M? other meanings?
.....2M-6-7 with 5M
.....2N-6-7 with 4H/3+C
.....3C-6-7 with 3+C
2D = 21-22 NT (we open 1D with 11-19).
2H = 17-19, not 4S.
2S = Natural GF.
2NT = GF 5-5 diamonds + another.
3C = GF 5-5 clubs + major.
3D = GF 5-5 majors.
3M = Nat GF, sets suit as trumps.
4m = Nat GF, sets suit as trumps.


The opening 2D is still available for something.

Some overlap here between 1C-1D, 2C and 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C.
and I think it better to use 1C-1D, 1H-1S, 2C as an artificial bid (handling 25+ balanced for example) and require your Acol two-bid in clubs to rebid at 3C.

Also not sure how you handle opener's goodish 5S/4H vs 4S/5H as they both seem to start with a 1C-1D, 1S rebid

[awm]

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-August-06, 15:02, said:

...
awm: Both red suits could work. A downside might be that it is easy for them to focus on the spade suit?
...

You can probably say the same about preempts in hearts, but people still play them. In any case this seems a lot better than the 2♦ bid showing both majors, which basically allows opponents to focus on penalizing you (they needn't worry about either major) and gives them a "free" initial double to clarify values.

[nullve]

 Kungsgeten, on 2018-August-06, 15:02, said:

I think there's a bit of an upside to promising the suit you open, since it usually puts more pressure on second hand.

It's probably true that

2♠ = "spades"

puts more pressure on opps than

2♦ = "spades",

but in your system 2♠ is already a Weak Two, so the question is whether the latter puts less pressure on opps than

2♦ = "diamonds".

 awm, on 2018-August-07, 01:17, said:

In any case this seems a lot better than the 2♦ bid showing both majors, which basically allows opponents to focus on penalizing you (they needn't worry about either major) and gives them a "free" initial double to clarify values.

Details?

Btw, why should the knowledge that Opener has 4+ M deter opps from reaching 4M? Do you believe Ekrens 2♦ gives opps two 2M cuebids for free?

The best defence against Ekrens that I've been able to come up with, is actually a generic 2♦ defence where X is basically takeout of diamonds so as to be able to handle situations like

(2♦)-P-(P),

(2♦)*-X-(P)**

* Ekrens
** long diamonds

and

(2♦)*-X-(P)**.

* canapé preempt in spades
** wants to play 2♦X opposite diamonds

[Kungsgeten]

 straube, on 2018-August-06, 17:37, said:

How often does responder bid after 1C-1D, 2C?
Also not sure how you handle opener's goodish 5S/4H vs 4S/5H as they both seem to start with a 1C-1D, 1S rebid

Our 1D response includes some hands which are GF vs the strong hands: 1D is either "any" negative (0-7) or balanced less than invite with no major (about 8-10). Even with the 0-7 hand, I'd say that its not that uncommon for the weak hand to bid again. With say 5-7 and some clubs, or perhaps a 5+ major, responder might decide trying for game. We play this:

1C-1D; 2C--
2D = Artificial F1.
...2H = Natural.
...2S = 4D.
...2NT = 6+C max.
...3C = 6+C min.
2M = Natural, 5-7 NF.
3C = Constructive (but NF).
3new = Maximum with 6 card suit.
3NT = To play.

When it comes to the 1S rebid, responder's 1NT is F1 and doesn't promise any kind of strength (still 0-10 hcp). Other responses are limited, promising some values. Opener now bids like this:

1C-1D; 1S-1NT;
2C = 5+ spades.
...2D = Positive relay. Opener's bids are natural, needs to jump in order to force game.
...2H = Natural weak.
...2S = Weak.
...3S = INV with 3S.
...3NT = 8-10 without support.
...4S = 8-10 with support.
2D = 5+ spades, 4 diamonds (since 17-19 with 5+ diamonds and 4 spades opens 1D).
2H = 4 spades, 5+ hearts.
2S = 4 spades, 5+ clubs.

The 1C-1D structure you suggested doesn't have a way to show GF hands with hearts, but those could be placed into 1H. The arificial 1H rebid reminds me a bit about the Dutch Doubleton (Oranje Klaveren?) systems, where they use responder's 1S as a transfer to 1NT. That might work in a big/small-club context too:

1C-1D; 1H (3+H weak, or some big hands)--
1S = Waiting.
...1NT = Weak NT. Everything by responder now to play.
...Others = Strong hands.
Others = Not sure, perhaps two-suiters (GF vs strong hands). Another alternative is for 1NT to show 4 spades 0-7.

We currently play more natural:

1C-1D; 1H--
1S = 0-7 with 4+S. Weak opener passes with 3--4 spades and bids 1NT with 2 (we used pass with all weak NT, but had some really bad 4-2 fit boards where 1NT would have been better).
1NT = 0-10, no major.
2C = 4 hearts 0-7, or 5+ hearts 0-4.
2D = Natural 5-7.
2H = 5+ hearts 5-7.
2S = 6+ clubs 5-7.

Not sure if its worth loosing the ability to play 1S, but the upside would be the stronger hand declaring 1NT, getting out of the way of the strong hands, and perhaps allowing responder to show some more type of hands.

[straube]

I see that you'd be giving up finding a heart fit when opener is 44(32) weak NT and responder is 0-7 w/ 4 hearts but seems a narrow target; often the opponents are bidding anyway.

1C-1D

P-12-14, usually 5D
1H-stronger
.....1S-0-5 any or 6-7 bal
..........1N-18-20 bal
..........2C-GF
...............2D-0-5
...............2H-6-7 bal
..........2D-Acol
..........2M-Acol
..........2N-23-24
.....transfers 6-7, GF
.....2S-7-11 bal, no major

1S-4S, 12-14 or 17-19, nf (includes 4S/5H)

1N-3-4H, 12-14

2C-5C, 0-3S 12-14 or 16-19

2D-21-22 bal

2H-17-19, nf

2S-17-19, 5S/4H

2N-Acol 4H/5+C

3C-Acol

Some obvious difficulties here but you get to play 1N with 18-20 bal and you get to enter game forces pretty sensibly (for example, responder gets to further narrow his point count range before opener commits to a GF). You still have 2D opening to address some constructive difficulty or use as a preempt.

[Kungsgeten]

straube: We've discussed things today and this is what we settled on (some similarities to your idea).

1C-1D;
Pass = 12-14
1H = a) 12-14 NT, 3+H. b) Acol two, single-suited if clubs. c) GF not covered by other rebids.
1S = 4+S, 17-19
1NT = 18-19
2C = Clubs, about 16-21 but not single-suited Acol.
2D = 20-21 NT.
2H = 17-19.
2S = Nat GF.
2NT = 22-24.
3C = GF 5-5 clubs + major.
3D = GF 5-5 majors.
3M = Nat GF sets trumps.
4m = Nat GF sets trimps.

1C-1D; 1H--
1S = Waiting, not 4S unless also having 4H. May have 5+S though.
...1NT = 12-14. Now everything is to play (2H might be four card suit, since opener has promised 3-4 H).
...2C = Unbalanced GF.
......2D = Waiting.
.........2H = Nat GF.
.........2S = GF with clubs.
.........2NT = GF with 5-5 diamonds + another.
.........3C = GF with 5+D and 4 other.
.........3D+ = GF 6+D.
...2DHS = Acol.
...2NT = 25+ NT.
...3C = Acol.
1NT = 0-7 and 4S.
...Pass = 12-14, not 4S.
...2C = GF, like above.
...2DH = Acol.
...2S = 12-14.
...2NT = Nat GF.
...3C = Acol.
...3S = Acol with 4(+)S.
...4S = To play.

A small issue is if opener has 3H, and responder has 5S and 4H, and both are weak. Now we'll probably play a 4-3 heart fit instead of a possible 5-3 spade fit.